Evidence for Jesus Christ?

[reverendjeremiah]

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Here is the "Lord of Hell" Jesus being very specific that those who deny him will be forced into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

Here is the "Prince of peace" Jesus saying that the only choices are to perish (permanent death or extinguishing) or eternal life.

So we have two very different ideologies being taught by the same savior.

[Cinjin]

So we have two very different ideologies being taught by the same savior.

that's what happens when people make up stories for decade after decade. They can't keep them straight.

[DeistPaladin]

Here is the "Lord of Hell" Jesus being very specific that those who deny him will be forced into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I'm going to play Christian's advocate and say that "everlasting fire" describes Hell but all who are thrown in immediately perish (which would follow, I suppose). The flames don't burn out but those thrown in do.

That's why I quoted Luke 16. Jesus is quite explicit about Hell being a place of torture.

[reverendjeremiah]

Here is the "Lord of Hell" Jesus being very specific that those who deny him will be forced into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I'm going to play Christian's advocate and say that "everlasting fire" describes Hell but all who are thrown in immediately perish (which would follow, I suppose). The flames don't burn out but those thrown in do.

That's why I quoted Luke 16. Jesus is quite explicit about Hell being a place of torture.

Its always good to have a DeistPaladin on your side to help.

[tackattack]

Disclaimer scriptures ahead- also the I and you are general and not directed at anyone in particular

That's exactly my take on Matt. and John verses quoted DP. Also nowhere in Luke 16:22-31 does it say the rich man's torment was everlasting. It simply states that he was tormented and sought relief from that place of torment. He may very well be still burning in hell or he could have been destroyed by now. Most assuredly he will be destroyed though if you look at all the verses the two of you quoted and add Mathew 10:28

"28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Then factor in Revelations 20 :14 and Hades is thrown into the flames of hell (so they're obviously not the same thing) along with the dead from the sea.

I interpret all of that being that their is Hades (Sheol) and come judgment time there is a "second death" To which you are either destroyed or live with God. Punishment is not eternal, and you've failed to support your claims. You may be tortured till you repent in Sheol, given the opportunity to do such, or paid an equitable punishment for your sins, it's not clear in scripture. It is clear that it won't be forever though. I did all that without reading into of your scriptures, twisting them and not cherry picking any as you've all chosen to do, to fortify your bias.

@Rev- in regards to forgiveness, I thought I was clear on that. It is offered freely. If I offer you free food, room and board would you take it? Would you expect me to bring it to you or would you come to me to claim it? That's a condition, acceptance, by definition. Covenants require 2 parties, and acceptance is a default assumption, therefore there isn't such a thing as unconditional in this sense. Stipulations there are none other than acceptance. Repentance necessarily follows true acceptance and is an outward sign for humanity, but not a requirement. By grace alone we are saved, from this torment and eventual annihilation.

[DeistPaladin]

Its always good to have a DeistPaladin on your side to help.

It's just that I've gotten so used to debating apologists and knowing how they look for any word in scripture they can turn, reinterpret or, in some cases, wrench completely out of context to weasel out of their theological problem. I've learned to anticipate their objections.

...oh and speaking of...

---

That's exactly my take on Matt. and John verses quoted DP. Also nowhere in Luke 16:22-31 does it say the rich man's torment was everlasting.

But Jesus does articulate Hell as a place of torture, which doesn't fit well with the theology that Hell is a place of destruction.

I interpret all of that being that their is Hades (Sheol) and come judgment time there is a "second death" To which you are either destroyed or live with God.

You should go talk to a rabbi sometime. "Sheol" translates to mean "the grave". The ancient Hebrews regarded this as "oblivion", not a holding/torture cell while you wait for judgment day.

As Lewis Black has observed, it's not your fault. It's not your book. When you want to understand the OT, you should "find a Jew and they will be happy to explain it all to you if the price is right."

Punishment is not eternal, and you've failed to support your claims.

*Snap* Irony meter overloaded again.

You may be tortured till you repent in Sheol, given the opportunity to do such, or paid an equitable punishment for your sins, it's not clear in scripture.

In fact, it's not even there in scripture. You sound like you're making up another Purgatory.

[RDK]

I am faced with a certain dilemna with which to solve. I observe an atheist who insists that Jesus did not exist, and all sorts of reasons to discount any authenticity to the works of Jesus. Test the works for yourself. If they were true earlier, they should still be true today. Jesus offered the gift of healing, teaching, miracles, among others. Of course, I should say, that any of you who choose not to trust will not see any of the manifestations of the spirit. They can only happen if you believe that they can. The works of God happen the best when love is being shared with those around you. How can you expect god to manifest Himself to you when yousay He is not real. Is a kind father going to force good things on you for you to believe? Of course He won't. He wants to give you a loving mind with which to receive and value the works of the spirit. Insulting God or insisting that He is not there is not a loving response to the kind things He wants to do for you. Give Him a chance.
I am not insulted personally by the responses I get from any of you here. God has proved to me that He is love, and it is by this method that I divide scriptures. The only law that Jesus had to fulfil was the law of love. Jesus did not carry on enforcing the old law. He replaced it with the new. No need for 613 commands to curse humanity with. Just love each other and God, and all the law was fulfilled. It's a shame that the old testament had to be attached to the new. The teachings of Jesus are so opposite to that of the old.
Hebrews 10-9, Then said He, Lo, I come to do thy will O God. He takes away the first, that He may establish the second.
Hebrews 8-13, In that He saith, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8-7, For if that first covenant had been FAULTLESS, then no place would have been sought fr the second.
Hebrews 7-22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
2nd Corinthians 3-14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament, which veil is done away in Christ.
Matthew 5-38, You have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, that you resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5-43, You have heard that it has been said, thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate your enemy. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you.
There are so many more scriptures that say the same thing. This is just a sample of the teachings of Jesus as being different from those of the O.T.
Love is the proof of the spirit. Try to demonstrate that instead of condemning people for seeing something so different from yourself.

[ib.me.ub]

I am faced with a certain dilemna with which to solve. I observe an atheist who insists that Jesus did not exist, and all sorts of reasons to discount any authenticity to the works of Jesus. Test the works for yourself. If they were true earlier, they should still be true today. Jesus offered the gift of healing, teaching, miracles, among others. Of course, I should say, that any of you who choose not to trust will not see any of the manifestations of the spirit. They can only happen if you believe that they can. The works of God happen the best when love is being shared with those around you. How can you expect god to manifest Himself to you when yousay He is not real. Is a kind father going to force good things on you for you to believe? Of course He won't. He wants to give you a loving mind with which to receive and value the works of the spirit. Insulting God or insisting that He is not there is not a loving response to the kind things He wants to do for you.

ok, so what if you do not beleive in 'god', openly admit it, but things still happen. How do you explain that.

[DeistPaladin]

Love is the proof of the spirit. Try to demonstrate that instead of condemning people for seeing something so different from yourself.

I don't know what is the cause of our consciousness but even if it was just brain chemistry, would that make love any less real? If it were ever proven to you that God didn't exist, would you not be equally capable of loving? Would such values as peace, love, forgiveness be something you'd stop believing in if miracles weren't real?

You can have values or believe in positive things without any reliance on ancient superstition. Come join us in the natural universe. It's not so bad once you get used to it.

[Minimalist]

I am faced with a certain dilemna with which to solve. I observe an atheist who insists that Jesus did not exist, and all sorts of reasons to discount any authenticity to the works of Jesus.

No...if you read carefully you'll see an atheist who insists that there is no evidence that your boy existed.
The distinction may be too subtle for you but this is your problem. As to any alleged "works" well, your boy would have to exist before he could do much of anything. Personally, I also discount the 12 Labors of Hercules as just another man-made myth.

You know, there is a book which claims that Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star. That's fiction, too.

I am not insulted personally by the responses I get from any of you here. God has proved to me that He is love, and it is by this method that I divide scriptures.

Sanity is not a requirement to post here. Feel free to let it rip.