Evidence for Jesus Christ?

[downbeatplumb]

Dan

The exact same things that you feel confirm your christian beliefs have been felt by millions of other people about thousands of other faiths.

here is one of the newest.

the religion of john frum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1skNgYdJXK8

[alemcodon]

Howdy Chaps and Chappesses.

Thanks RDK for the kind words - hopefully by using science and logic we can teach them the universe is not created out of randomness,

i am a muslim so ive heard tens times worse abuses everywhere and to be honest it doesnt bother me anymore lol its become normal to hear people cursing us whereever we go.

my main objectives are to alleviate the hate diffrent religious and athiests groups have. Theres no reason why we can discuss our own opinions in a respectable manner whereever it is.

And i do agree, when you take away god, you take away 'right and wrong' and we are heading towards a moraless society because of this. Being tolerant of someones elses opinion is not something you should be proud of, it should be expected.

Mr SummerQueen

Hey...where'd you get that "millions" number?

OK that was just like an expression type of figure of speech type thing - dont be too literal.

Point is there is written records from books which date back to not long after Christ, the best evidence would be the christian books found in palestine, the actual place where jesus chilled out. but as i said, the roman church would not publicise these books since they dnt follow modern christian ideas, but as proof of jesus existence you cant deny them. It is a written record of his life written by people that were around him.

Search 'old bibles in palestine' in youtube to see more about these books, you cant buy them from woolworths or hmv.

Not really... that handy tool called "science" which is supposed to eliminate all possible bias seems to have done a handy job at supporting the theory of evolution, yet it keeps coming up empty on the Bible.

If you actually had anything to do with the science of evolution you will know there are more questions than answers - why have so many animals stayed virtually unchanged for milions of years yet other have grown legs, walking flying etc.

i dont completely disagree with evolution, there are aspects of it which are logical, ie natural selection, but each and every species was not created from random genetic mutations.

There are currently 2 milloin species on earth, and 99.9% of all species have been extinct in 3 billion hears since life inhabited earth. Do the math, thats an average of a new species every 10 years (roughly). In the last 2000yrs can anyone show me an example of a positive genetic mutation?

DNA is extremely complex, a defect in the DNA of any animal will 99.99999999% of the time result in deformities, not two new arms or sharper eye sight.

I have yet to see any evidence of a positive genetic mutation, which should be occuring at least once every 10 years.

Sometime during the european dark ages a line was drawn between science and christianity, this wasnt the case in the middle east, even in parts of europe ie spain it wasnt the case, and just because that line was drawn for a brief period doesnt mean theres a universal line between science and every other religion globally.

ONLY europe in the dark ages drew that line, no other religion has ever drawn that line - and 1000years later your still drawing that line. Ancient hindus? the egyptions, the greeks, the babylonians, the muslims, every other major religion science was a crucial part of every day life. Its amazing how willingly people believe 'facts' without seeing any evidence - just by hearing someones statement...religion causes all wars? no power money and greed causes wars, the religions is just how their labelled.

example you say to anyone hitler/nazis and their first words would be blonde hair blue eyes aryan super race....yet can anyone show me a quote from his book about aryan super race? can anyone show me black slaves in nazi germany? can anyone show me mistreatment of blacks in USA during ww2? Has anyone ever read jessie owens book a bout the hitler snubbing him incidence? i was taught this sheiBe in school as fact, but it was all lies. Hitler never snubbed jessie owens, if you dnt believe me buy his book and read it yourself - in his own words. fact is Hitler was seen as a protector by african nations from the colonial onslaught of france, spain, italy and england 9scramble for africa) - they were all just as greedy and as evil as each other in those days.

We don't seem to have a problem 'proving' the existence of certain Egyptians from WAY further back than Jesus or Moses.

Those egyptions were mummified.... as was this one...

"We brought the Children of Israel across the sea and Pharaoh and his troops pursued them out of tyranny and enmity. Then, when he was on the point of drowning, he (Pharaoh) said, I believe that there is no god but Him in whom the Children of Israel believe. I am of those who submit to God. What! Now! And indeed you disobeyed before and you were of the mischief-makers. This day shall We save you in your body, that you may be a Sign to those who come after you! But verily, many among mankind are neglectful of Our Signs." (Holy Quran 10:90-92)

One of you sexy science boys want to explain wtf he's talking about here and how it represents a "controlled explosion"?

By your own admission you know every little of science where a number to you doesnt represent the randomness of a probability...yet you 'observe' science has proven evolution and disproven the existence of god.

the greatest scientist in earths history was einstein - and he believed in god, more strongly as he discovered more because he fully understood the extremely fine and delicate balance of everything in the universe, which is not possible by chance.

If I follow the grammar of your sentence, it sounds like you're saying trees and plants transform into animals. No one has ever suggested that.

When you were born and you were a baby, what did you eat? the mass on your body is made of the matter which you ate/consumed, yes/no?

So if you following an atom of carbon in a cow shit, which a fruit plant has consumed, and then a chicken ate that plants seed, you have ate the chicken and/or the plant, that SAME matter is tranferring state, in various living organisms - and at the core.....You're physical mass is made of what you eat....

Nearly all the matter of earth has passed through some life form, the very first living cell on earth, then how did it come together? there must have been an intelligence where carbon atoms, mixed with water and amino acids and created the very first micro organism - so theres was an intellignce within the 'innate' atoms...so then why does this intelligence only live in the carbon atoms on earth and not the ones on jupitor?


Clearly from the diversity of life on earth, the 'intelligence' will stop at nothing to form more complex beings, but why only on earth.

and athiests/humanists/non god beleivers would say because theres no liquid water, or the elements of life etc - but no-one has ever explained (including scientists) what is the signficance of liquid water? or amino acids? or nitrogen that allows life.

The atmoms carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen exists almost everywhere in the universe, but life is only on earth...come on sexy science boys tell me....

Now I have no idea what point you're making.

exactly....think again!!!

Napolean666

Get that hideous wall of spam off of my fucking thread.

Summerqueen might have the patience to dissect that shit but i sure as hell don't, you're making far too many 'points' (if they can be called that) to even start bothering with.

if my answers scare you then cease asking scary questions.

THOR
Thanks for HUMAN like non abusive reply....

Where have any of us claimed that molecules "intelligently" could think for themselves?

Im not saying you claim that, but if i were an athiests, thats the observation i would have made, and that is the reality of the life around you, atoms joined to make chemicals which made micro organisms, and somehow the energy was harnessed to reproduce..and perform tasks....

Nope. And a few hundred years ago we couldn't have explained what causes the sun to rise and set, what causes rain, disease, the tides, etc, etc.... And your point is.....?

A few hundred years ago 'science' said the world was flat and light cam out your eyes - that was the reality in those days....the same as your reality today,.,,.,

Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.

HAHAHHAHAH thats a good one chap..!! i like it!!!

moon landings were fake and bin laden didnt do 9/11.....

oh yeah and the first and only athiest government regime, the marxist government of russia..the communists who killed about 100million of their own people.

science flies us to the moon and stars....athiests flew us to communism and back down again...

[Minimalist]

moon landings were fake and bin laden didnt do 9/11.....

Oh yeah...just a first class dickhead there.

Go throw rocks at women you fucking barbarian.

[Faith No More]

...I feel nothing but compassion and sorrow for you, sorrow that you do not know the kind of love that I do. Nothing can possibly give oneself more joy than that what 'is found' in the Lord Jesus and the unprecidented grace and mercy of God! Regardless of whether my beliefs are right, this love, joy and compassion are real, and nothing can be more rewarding or satisfy the soul more than this!

I love it when a Christian says they are sorry for atheists because we don't know the love you're feeling. It's kind of akin to a schizophrenic feeling bad for everyone else because they can't hear those awesome voices in their head. There is no need to feel sorry for people free from spiritual delusion. While I can't speak for anyone here, most atheists I have known in real life have no problem reproducing what you 'find' in the lord with psychoactive chemicals.

[Minimalist]

.I feel nothing but compassion and sorrow for you, sorrow that you do not know the kind of love that I do.

Go fuck yourself and your absurd 'god.'

[downbeatplumb]

Einstien did not believe in a personal god.

I.e. not Yahweh nor Allah.

He believed in the god of spinoza which is more deistic and closer to atheism.

When question about God and religion on behalf of an aged Talmudic scholar, Einstein replied:

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem — the most important of all human problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism

Oh and the russians stiffled the church in order to crush a rival power base not 'in the name of non-belief'

Stalin was a bad bad man...........he trained for the priesthood you know.

He went away to a school which, like many at the time, was run by the Orthodox Church. He learned Russian and was very successful in his studies. At the age of 15 he transferred to a church seminary (or college) that prepared young men for the priesthood. The future dictator of the world's first atheist state thus began life as a trainee priest.

[Faith No More]

And i do agree, when you take away god, you take away 'right and wrong' and we are heading towards a moraless society because of this. Being tolerant of someones elses opinion is not something you should be proud of, it should be expected.

This is not true as theists underestimate the power of empathy in the human spirit. I am always curious about why the religious choose to use this arguement. It's simply admitting that without your religious beliefs to tell you what to do you would be completely amoral.

i dont completely disagree with evolution, there are aspects of it which are logical, ie natural selection, but each and every species was not created from random genetic mutations.

There are currently 2 milloin species on earth, and 99.9% of all species have been extinct in 3 billion hears since life inhabited earth. Do the math, thats an average of a new species every 10 years (roughly). In the last 2000yrs can anyone show me an example of a positive genetic mutation?

Okay not a scientist but I do know that 2000 years on an evolutionary scale is a millisecond. So basically you're equating evolution to Rome being built in a day.

...religion causes all wars? no power money and greed causes wars, the religions is just how their labelled.

Religion gave them their power and their greed.

example you say to anyone hitler/nazis and their first words would be blonde hair blue eyes aryan super race....yet can anyone show me a quote from his book about aryan super race? can anyone show me black slaves in nazi germany? can anyone show me mistreatment of blacks in USA during ww2? Has anyone ever read jessie owens book a bout the hitler snubbing him incidence? i was taught this sheiBe in school as fact, but it was all lies. Hitler never snubbed jessie owens, if you dnt believe me buy his book and read it yourself - in his own words. fact is Hitler was seen as a protector by african nations from the colonial onslaught of france, spain, italy and england 9scramble for africa) - they were all just as greedy and as evil as each other in those days.

As a skeptic I can suggest you not to take anything a governemnt says at face value. The Owens vs. Hitler thing was wartime propoganda. Governements will say whatever they want if they believe it will get you to be on their side.

the greatest scientist in earths history was einstein - and he believed in god, more strongly as he discovered more because he fully understood the extremely fine and delicate balance of everything in the universe, which is not possible by chance.

I love it when they trot out Einstien. Einstein believed in a creator, similar to a deist(someone else here could probably clarify no that further), not an all-powerful man in the sky watching over your shoulder. So when Einstein says 'God,' he is not talking about your God.

When you were born and you were a baby, what did you eat? the mass on your body is made of the matter which you ate/consumed, yes/no?

So if you following an atom of carbon in a cow shit, which a fruit plant has consumed, and then a chicken ate that plants seed, you have ate the chicken and/or the plant, that SAME matter is tranferring state, in various living organisms - and at the core.....You're physical mass is made of what you eat....

Nearly all the matter of earth has passed through some life form, the very first living cell on earth, then how did it come together? there must have been an intelligence where carbon atoms, mixed with water and amino acids and created the very first micro organism - so theres was an intellignce within the 'innate' atoms...so then why does this intelligence only live in the carbon atoms on earth and not the ones on jupitor?

Clearly from the diversity of life on earth, the 'intelligence' will stop at nothing to form more complex beings, but why only on earth.

When I first started reading your post I thought maybe you knew something about science, but after that garbage I can see that you are just another one of the people that read 'Science for Sixth Graders' and now suddenly thinks he gets it all. I wasted a good chunk of time splitting up your response because at first glimpse, you seemed to be an educated theist. But it stops here...

[Napoléon]

Napolean666

Get that hideous wall of spam off of my fucking thread.

Summerqueen might have the patience to dissect that shit but i sure as hell don't, you're making far too many 'points' (if they can be called that) to even start bothering with.

if my answers scare you then cease asking scary questions.

OH MAN I'M SO TERRIFIED!

lol jk



Seriously dude, you're just too clever for me. I really can't compete with your insane knowledge on all of these broad subjects. You have us all beat at every turn.

CLEARLY you are showing us all the truth. I see it now, the only explanation is god. By filling in the gaps with a supreme being all my questions are answered.

You have really opened my eyes here, seriously, you're logic is just undeniable.
I mean who needs evidence when you have faith. Why did i not see it before? All it's taken is one extremely clever dude like yourself to show me, and i feel ALIVE.

PRAISE THE MOTHERFUCKIN LORD

[fr0d0]

It's my belief that an invisible pink unicorn orbits the moon. Can you prove me wrong?

I'm a collector of mixed metaphors. That's a good one

[Dan]

I really cannot be bothered to debate with you anymore, but I have one last thing I wish to mention. Let's drop all the supernatural talk for the moment and focus on a true hardcore fact of life, right and wrong; First of all no one can deny that there is right and wrong, good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness. Now by all logic, because there is good and evil, there must be such a thing as pure good (where there is no evil at all) and pure evil (where there is no good). Every human being is capable of doing good and doing evil. No one is perfect and is pure in righteousness, 'everyone' has done evil and therefore 'everyone' is a sinner!

Let's say a man has rescued 100 people from a burning building, but he also stabbed someone and seriously wounded them. Is this man good because he has committed more good deeds than bad? No, because there is still some bad there no matter how little in comparison to good. It is the same with light, no matter how bright it is, unless it is pure light, there is still some dimness there. So then, no matter how little sin the man has, he still has some, this is true of everybody because I'm sure you agree that nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes and we all sin, it is the very nature of humanity. Sin, evil, unrighteousness or whatever you want to call it, is against what is good and righteous and therefore is a crime against it.

So then, is it not true that anyone who has committed any bad deeds has gone against the opposite which is good? Therefore, because righteousness is just, any bad deed must be met with justice ie. punishment. It does not matter if someone's good deeds outweigh their bad deeds by a million to one, because as I've already stated, there is still some bad there, which I'm sure you can agree.

Ok, so the man who saved 100 people and committed 1 stabbed goes to court for justice. If he is not taken to court, then there is still injustice am I not right, because he has committed evil which is against good and therefore unjust.

If the man goes to court, there will be a judge, and the judge of any crime must be completely blameless of that crime in order give justice for that crime. Assuming the man who is guilty is found to be so, he will be punished in accordance to his crime.

It is also feasible that someone else may take the blame, if it is indeed someone who was without any blame for that crime, and of course by taking the blame, he would suffer the guilty man's punishment. Could there possibly be a greater show of love than this?

What if though the man who was stabbed chooses to forgive the man who stabbed him? Would that not be just? Is this not the same for any bad deeds, that if we are forgiven for them, then it is just and right? However, if the man is not forgiven, then he must be punished or else there will be injustice. Even if someone else was to take the blame, unless the man who committed the crime was truly sorry for what he has done, there would still be injustice, because, he might just do it again! Also, is it not true that unless someone is truly sorry for something bad they have done, they cannot be forgiven and may still feel guilty? Also, unless someone acknowledges they have done wrong, then there can be no forgiveness and justice can only be met with punishment. Also, unless you accept forgiveness, then you are not forgiven, is this not always true?

So then, if a person acknowledges that they have sinned, will they not seek forgiveness? Perhaps they will feel guilty. Or perhaps they think it doesn't matter. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter then there is still injustice, but can injustice really last? Can it just be forgotten about? No, because no matter what, injustice never goes away without justice!

Ok, so we know that no one is perfect, we have all sinned, is the evidence of this not everywhere in the world? It is sin that causes all forms of, war, hate, crime, intolerance, dishonesty, greed and many more, as I've already said; it is the very nature of a human being. Without sin, there would be no evil in the world; therefore everything would be good and just. The fact is, some religion, some teachings etc can cause sin and therefore it is true that some religion does cause bad things in the world. Is it not also true if something is not true, it is false and since what is true is right, what is false must be wrong. If anyone adheres to false teachings, whether they know it or not, can they ultimately know from those teachings what is true, just, right, good? No! Only what is true can teach them these things, even if that truth includes injustice and therefore punishment, or perhaps even forgiveness.

Now what about sin as a whole? Surely there must be some form of justice for sin, for reasons I have already stated. Christianity is the only religion which truly acknowledges sin. It is in fact by definition not a religion, but a way of life. This is justified because religion includes certain rituals, ceremonies etc in which people attempt to please or perhaps cleanse themselves before the god(s) they believe in. Not all forms of so called Christianity should be called Christianity because no be a Christian, you have to follow Jesus Christ. Jesus’ strongest opposition was religion and he taught us not a religion, but a way of life. Also some religions believe that by doing more good than bad you can get to heaven. If you consider what I've already mentioned in regards to this, will the bad deeds just go away like that? Also, in every other religion apart from Christianity, people attempt to reach the god(s) they believe in, but consider this; if there is a God, surely that God must be purely righteous in order to judge. And where there is a judge, that judge must be completely blameless in order to judge. Therefore, where there is a judge, there must be justice. But if a person’s bad deeds remain unpunished or unforgiven, surely there will be punishment. Christianity is the only teaching in which God came to us (because of love), and gave us teachings of pure righteous, which are the Bible! Now if the righteous teachings in the Bible are not from God, who made them? Man? Could man who has both the capability for good and evil think up or create anything of pure good? Surely that would be illogical; surely teachings in righteousness must be 'given' by someone who is without evil. If you truly study the Bible you 'will' find that it teaches in righteousness because it does not anywhere tell the reader that they should sin!

Now if there is a God, then that God must be righteous, again for reasons I have already mentioned. Therefore that God can provide teachings in pure righteousness, because, in him, there would be no evil. The teachings of the Bible are indeed of righteousness, and even though in the Bible, God did have people killed, perhaps this just, ie. stopping those people from spreading any more evil. The fact is if there is a God, then the will of God cannot be judged, questioned etc. because it would be righteous, and only someone who is pure in righteous could understand it. Therefore, no one can understand it!

Anyway, must there not be some form of pure righteousness and pure unrighteousness? ie. God, the devil? If there is no God then there is no such thing as righteous and therefore, there is no such thing as unrighteousness/ If this is the case, there would be no justice, no punishment and everyone could just live how they wanted without any consequences. If you think there are no consequences for sin then what about death? Everyone sins, everyone dies! Is that not a consequence? Is that not justice for sin?

In no other religion is there an answer to sin ie. a way to get rid of it, but in Christianity, there is. If you do not get rid of sin through punishment or forgiveness, then it is still there. Rituals and ceremonies etc, do they remove sin? No, because they are external and sin comes from within (desires, attitudes etc). There are 2 solutions to sin; 1) punishment. 2) forgiveness. Only that which is without sin can be the judge of sin. No one can deny that we die and when we do, there are 2 possibilities. Either we pass away into nothing, or a part of our existence carries on to exist without the body. If you read any story of someone who has had a near death experience (NDE), they all have, with uncanny resemblance, very similar stories, none of which include an emptiness of nothing and ceasing to exist. The fact is, whether they are telling the truth or not, is it not true that no one can see passed death unless they die? I can't see how people can be comfortable with believing there is no life after death, and that when you die you do not exist. Can there possibly be a more dreadful fate than for your existence to cease?! How can anyone be Ok with that?!

If you are Ok with that then that is up to you. For those who can't be content with the idea of hell, is the idea really any more comforting than the end of your existence?! The fact is though, death or hell, whichever, is a punishment for sin and is 'just' for our bad deeds. However, where there is justice, there is also forgiveness! But how can we have forgiveness, must it not be from God who is righteous? If there is no God, there is no forgiveness and as I’ve already said we would not be punished by death. Unlike any other teachings, in Christianity, God came to us and gave us teachings of righteousness out of his love and because he loves us (as Christianity states); he also wants to forgive us. No other teachings in the world have any forgiveness for sins in which we can escape the eternal punishment of death / hell, and only through forgiveness can our sins no longer count against us without the punishment of death!

The fact is anyone who does not acknowledge their sins and are truly sorry, cannot be forgiven! God could just say that he forgives us and that be that, but if that was the cause would we really learn? If heaven exists, there is no evil there. If there was, it would just be like the Earth and no better as there would be good and evil, just like on the Earth. That is why God came to us, to teach us righteousness but that alone cannot cure someone of sin. Anyway who is still capable of sin cannot therefore be let into heaven, should it exist, because they would ruin it! You can only be rid of sin if you are obedient to that what is without sin. Therefore you become obedient to righteousness, which can only be obtained through faith, Romans 5:21-31 tells us this. And that faith is in righteousness, which is God and that his Son Jesus Christ died for our sins.

This is why God sent his Son Jesus (who was pure in righteousness), into the world, not only to teach us and train us in righteousness, but as a sacrifice! Someone who was without sin to take the blame of all our sins upon himself and to die in our place on the cross! This is the single greatest act of love, a righteous man to die for the unrighteous, of which, most of them hated him! Therefore the teaching in the Bible; love your enemies! God did this to demonstrate his love for us as it says in Romans 5:8 “Whilst we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” And because Jesus died for us, whoever has faith in him ‘will’ be forgiven their sins, and only through faith in Jesus (he what is righteous) can one become obedient to righteousness which are the teachings in the Bible, the commandments!

Jesus might have died on the cross but God raised him from the dead, so that just as he died for our sins, and was risen to life, we too may die to sin when we accept him as our Saviour, and be given new life through his resurrection! If he was not resurrected, there would not be new life, a life of obedience to righteousness through faith, instead obedience to sin. Therefore, his sacrifice would be in vain. This is what a Christian conversion is, you die to sin and you know in that moment your sins are forgiven, and I tell you, forgiveness is never false! Because of this forgiveness you also feel immense joy in the presence of God’s love for you and in the freedom of new life through the resurrection of Jesus, in which when the body dies, you will not die or be condemned, but be made pure in righteousness through the sacrifice and your faith in Jesus and receive the reward for your faith, eternal paradise!

You cannot get to heaven by any good works, it is because of God's grace (undeserved love) that we can, through faith in Jesus, the righteous one, the Son of the living God! This is what I and all true Christians believe. I’ve tried to explain it the best I can in so called ‘rational’ terms. I still don’t expect anyone to believe me, and I do not wish to debate with you my faith any further, so do not expect me to reply to any comments. I’ve said what I have to say, and if you choose not to believe me then that is up to you. If you do not wish to perish, then Jesus is the ‘only’ way! Because who else can be there for you not just when you die, but now and forever?!

---

One last thing @fr0d0 - "Christianity is perfect, Christians are not - C. S. Lewis"

This is absolutely true, we do not believe we are perfect, but the one in us is perfect. That is God's Holy Spirit that one recieves through faith in Jesus. As long as we are on the Earth, we will still sin and are imperfect and are no better than anyone else. Anyone who say's otherwise and claims to be a Christian 'is not'. We are only made perfect because of our faith when we die and come into his unprecedented glory.