...(Atheistic irony)

[cGodfrey]

Well, as you can deduce from my post count, I'm a new member. As this may end up being either my only post and/or my only thread I will say what I want to say and await the responses. If I get none my question(s) will be answered. Although from what I've seen throughout the forums I will at least get one response containing some rational thought and as well, my question(s) will be answered. Away we go.

I am currently serving in the US Army, as you might have guessed, or plain 'ole read, I'm an Atheist. Not the open type that flaunts his lack of belief around or bashes those that have beliefs (anti-theist). I think the idea that religion stands for can be a good thing. What it is supposed to do, how people are supposed to act and the like. What it actually does and is supposed to do are different things (depending on the religion). People have turned something that started off innocent into a perverted society of derelicts. Beginning to sway from my topic...

Some of you might have seen that there is a soldier attempting to get Atheism recognized by the military and chaplain services. He would like to become an Atheist chaplain! Contradiction? Seems like it to me. After I had heard about this I began looking into what this guy has done, aside from get a ton of publicity on the matter and get his picture in the NY times. I found out that he has created a group for other folks with similar beliefs that also serve our country. After I found that I began looking around for other groups for Atheists and then stumbled onto this forum. I read a few posts and saw that are people here that could possibly offer an intelligent answer for my question(s). I hope I'm not wrong (psychological implantation, gotta love it).

So the purpose of this thread-Why would an Atheist need to be a part of a religious organization/receive counsel from a religious member? I given this a bit of thought and I can't seem to put my finger on why this guy is so into creating a chaplain service for Atheists and creating groups for other "freethinkers" to join. I understand the principal he is getting at, our military is slightly forcing religion down our throats, but he's contradicting the very aspect of what I feel freethinking is all about. Paraphrasing Dawkins to fit this conversation-Getting Atheists to join a group is like herding cats. You can have 10 Atheists in the same room and all of them believe/act differently and independently from one another. Sure we would have a common ground with our whole disbelief, but really who cares. I didn't want to join this forum because I think the idea is counterproductive to my views.

I remember in highschool when all the goth kids started coming about with their all black clothes and black hair and piercings all over their faces. They would hang out together, dress alike, listen to the same music and claim to be into anarchy, etc. I asked one of them why they dressed like that. I figured he would say so everyone would know what he was in to and further allow other that were into the same thing a more approachable avenue. His response was "I'm not a sheep, I'm an individual, independent and capable of my own thoughts." I replied to him. "If you are capable of your own thoughts and are an individual, independent from the rest of society, then why do you have to dress, look, and act like all the other individuals, independent and capable of their own thoughts, who are also not sheep?"

I suppose the humanistic need to belong comes into play here, or maybe just to have an intelligent conversation like I aim that this thread will generate, but I fail to really see the point in creating a chapel service for soldiers who are Atheist. Nor do I see a reason for a group of us to sit around and point at the sky and laugh (I can do that myself), Why must it be an Atheist group and not just a group? I don't know. Perhaps I am asking these questions because maybe there's something that I didn't know about Atheism that I should. Do we need a building were we meet and rejoice a really unglamorous afterlife of eternal blackness that we don't even get to be a part of or enjoy? Is there a reason to discuss all issues on an Atheistic/theistic premise? I have tons of conversations with people everyday and 99% of them have nothing to do with religion and I don't cry myself to sleep at night due to my ideological quota not being met.

Sorry for the long post, as I said this may be my only one and I get to read a flood of responses (fingers crossed). I wanted to see what other Atheists, who would be unbiased to this situation, thought. As for me, if they were to create these groups throughout the military and provide an Atheist chaplain, I would still not be a part of the groups nor would I seek advice from the chaplain. They have plenty of avenues for Atheistic release in this world, most involve a naked woman and an ice cold beer.

(And yes I've already taken into account that my very presence on this forum is contradictive to what I said within my post, and therefore proves why groups and like would be formed. Allow me to now disprove God's existance by proving it. Not good enough, I'd talk to the guy directly but I don't have his phone number.)

[Gawdzilla]

Ever tried to herd cats?

Atheists are a wildly varied group of people who have ONE thing in common, a lack of belief. We can barely get them on the same page for our local meet-up groups.

[ib.me.ub]

Interesting. It seem to me you have all the answers you require.

[fr0d0]

Yes you're the victim of your own question.

Universities have secular societies... it's what most people are drawn to: socializing. What does the chaplaincy provide, and could and of that be replicated for non believers? Personally I can see how it could, and don't see your problem with allowing it to be so.

You are like the goth in your example, you try to deny what you are.

[cGodfrey]

Yes you're the victim of your own question.

Universities have secular societies... it's what most people are drawn to: socializing. What does the chaplaincy provide, and could and of that be replicated for non believers? Personally I can see how it could, and don't see your problem with allowing it to be so.

You are like the goth in your example, you try to deny what you are.

Perhaps I am the victim, then again, I like to think that I'm an onlooker witnessing the act of injustice.

The chaplain service provides multiple services, however since the war began over ten years ago, they have provided more of a spiritual relief for those suffering from PTSD, among other things. They aren't limited to be your personl confession or pastor, priest....Where the chaplain usually lacks is the ability to provide a college degree psychologically geared aid. The military has funded X dollars for it's psychology program and has went to lengths of hiring civilian head docs to help lessen soldier's battle stress. Where they lack is the spiritual guidance for our religious members. They work hand in hand with each other providing all the emotional and spiritual guidance. An Atheist chaplain would essentially be a non PsD holding person for the psychological community. There would be no need for the Atheist chaplain to provide spiritual support since a true Atheist has no need for that. Therefore, it would seem that you could be my chaplain, or the hobo on the street, or the old man in the coffee shop, so why give him the esteemed title of "Chaplain"? The replication for non-believers is simply put-a counselor, but we have those already.

I don't have a problem with allowing this, in fact it would be good for our military to go to its root and become secular as our nation was founded. Freedom of religion and such. As I said, I love the idea of religion, but forcing it on our service members is absolutely wrong and violates the very constitutional rights we defend. If this change comes about I will embrace it by not caring, but the uproar from religious service members can almost be heard now.

I don't feel that I have denied what I am. I think my analogy of the goth was more along the lines of being a follower when you where a sign that says "I will not conform" while at the same time standing amongst fellow non-conformists wearing the same sign. I can't not be like all the other Atheists that share my lack of belief, but that doesn't mean that I need to be a part of a group to further sanctify my belief or absence there of. I don't deny my being Atheist nor do I sport a shirt depicting a cross with an X through it.

[fr0d0]

So you don't see the function of the 'atheist chaplain'. I thought church in the army was just an excuse to get out of some stuff, I know that's more than cynicism.

Your observation demonstrates the uniqueness of the metaphysical, and there's no reason I know of that atheism would deny metaphysical considerations which would necessarily fall outside of the self imposed strict remit of science, but not impede on theism. That being so, there is good reason for the chaplaincy.

[Minimalist]

I given this a bit of thought and I can't seem to put my finger on why this guy is so into creating a chaplain service for Atheists and creating groups for other "freethinkers" to join.

I agree with you. On the surface it seems counter-productive if not downright asinine. Is it possible that it is something to do with the military bureaucracy specifically? You know, you have to be a "chaplain" to be recognized as a religious group for some specific reason?

For the life of me, I can't imagine what an atheist "chaplain" would say.

[cGodfrey]

There's certainly no reason an Atheist wouldn't want to evaluate metaphysics and in that sense a chaplain would be a good thing. What a thought provoking arguement you have there. One can never have too many advisors. I see your point for the chaplaincy adopting atheism. Thanks for that.

If anyone has counterpoints to keep this discuss going, feel free. Fr0d0 hooked me up with some good stuff, such complexity in 2 sentences, I like it.

---

You know, you have to be a "chaplain" to be recognized as a religious group for some specific reason?

I do. The thing that sparked this soldier's interest was a evangelical concert funded by the military installation he is from. (I'm trying to stay cryptic about it, although you can find it with a simple google search.) Anyhow, he asked the same people that funded the concert if he could put on an Atheist concert, he had Richard Dawkins lined up to come speak, and so on the story goes. Well, they denied him the funding and said that people wouldn't want to go to an Atheist concert and they wouldn't get the result they desired for their funding. Had Atheism been a part of the chaplaincy it would have worked and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

To me it sounded like a ton of shit stirring for little result.

So without the backing from the chaplain we aren't allowed to have any kind of "religious" groups/meetings on base. For now his group meets off the installation.

[Faith No More]

I too am confused as to why this guy would want to start this group and take the position of chaplain. Like you said, an atheist chaplain is really just a counselor and you already have those. Maybe he is trying to give atheists in the army their own social structure but it honestly sounds as if he is just enjoying the publicity. Almost all atheists I have talked to would agree that it would be ridiculous for them to get together and discuss their lack of belief. It almost sounds as if this guy is trying to be a "leader" for atheists in the army but that contradicts what most atheists stand for which is no atheistic hirearchy. I am suspicious of his motives because he wants to receive the title of "chaplain." I don't see why an organization would be neccessary for an intellectual metaphysical discourse and I don't see the point of his whole endeavor.

[cGodfrey]

I too am confused as to why this guy would want to start this group and take the position of chaplain. Like you said, an atheist chaplain is really just a counselor and you already have those. Maybe he is trying to give atheists in the army their own social structure but it honestly sounds as if he is just enjoying the publicity. Almost all atheists I have talked to would agree that it would be ridiculous for them to get together and discuss their lack of belief. It almost sounds as if this guy is trying to be a "leader" for atheists in the army but that contradicts what most atheists stand for which is no atheistic hirearchy. I am suspicious of his motives because he wants to receive the title of "chaplain." I don't see why an organization would be neccessary for an intellectual metaphysical discourse and I don't see the point of his whole endeavor.

I think you're on to something, I've thought that celebrity status was what it was all about too. He's going to too much trouble for something that will hardly meet the demand.

I think it all boils down to this analogy. I don't eat sweets, sugar, chocolate, and for the point of this analogy: Cake. I don't eat cake, haven't since I was 8 or so...It's just to rich and sweet for me. But does that mean that I shouldn't have a birthday cake. I mean, everyone else gets a birthday cake, shouldn't I? I feel that he's asking for something that he doesn't even want and making it a huge deal, only to ignore the results when/if he gets them. The difference with my analogy and this situation is, during my birthday if I get a cake and I don't eat it-everyone gets a piece of cake and is happy. For him, he's fighting a battle for cake for a bunch of non-cake eating party goers. It just doesn't make sense.