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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm
(May 3, 2011 at 1:55 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: A time traveler from the distant future arrives accidentally in the Middle East during the reign of the Roman Empire around the year 20 (give or take). Knowing the great suffering that christianity will cause the world for the next 2000+ years he decides to find and kill Jesus Christ.
Is it possible for him to be successful?
Several assumptions will have to be made. Discuss.
No. Because the very fact that he travelled back in time was always going to happen and is part of history and history tells us that he did not succeed.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: May 3, 2011 at 4:41 pm by Cinjin.)
(May 3, 2011 at 4:24 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (May 3, 2011 at 3:14 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: If Jesus existed and he is exactly how they describe him in that book of contradictions, then you could not kill him or change anything.
*Tangent Alert*
You just made me think of another problem I had the first time I read the Gospels cover-to-cover.
Herod tries to kill baby Jesus but an angel warns the family to flee to Egypt.
Quote:Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
So why flee? Go ahead, run your sword through him a bunch of times for all the difference it will make. This is freaking God Incarnate here, right? And then what will his soldiers do when Heaven counter-strikes with a team of angels?
I later learned that the author of Matthew was probably an Ebionite, an early sect of Christianity that used a version of his scripture in which Jesus was a mortal man possessed by the spirit of God at the baptism. Thus, Jesus would have been vulnerable prior to his baptism. It also explains neatly why there's no ministry prior to age 30. If Jesus was God, what the hell was he doing all that time? But if Jesus was a mortal, his story just wasn't interesting enough to merit being part of scripture.
This would also explain why Jesus' last words according to Matthew were "My God, why have you forsaken me?" According to the Ebionites, the spirit of God couldn't die so it departed from Jesus while he was on the cross. Jesus' last words according to Matthew make much more sense in this light. From the Trinitarian perspective it sounds like Jesus is saying "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"
This needs to be a video topic...
Then even according to the Ebionite christians, Jesus wasn't really the "son of god" - he was the intended physical host of god. Which would mean that up until his baptism he was a flawed man who more than likely committed sins?
Sounds like someone who could easily be physically killed. Which leads one to wonder if there were other intended "hosts" who didn't quite make it or possibly weren't near as charasmatic or just didn't have the egotistical commitment to claiming almighty power.
(May 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)oggtheclever Wrote: No. Because the very fact that he travelled back in time was always going to happen and is part of history and history tells us that he did not succeed.
A very valid answer. Paradoxes always prevent changing the past.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 4:54 pm
(May 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)oggtheclever Wrote: No. Because the very fact that he travelled back in time was always going to happen and is part of history and history tells us that he did not succeed.
Thats why the first thing I asked was if it would be a parallel time or linear, and how would we know? He is asking that you overlook that detail.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm
(This post was last modified: May 3, 2011 at 5:04 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(May 3, 2011 at 4:38 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Then even according to the Ebionite christians, Jesus wasn't really the "son of god" - he was the intended physical host of god.
Essentially, yes. He was still called the (adopted) Son of God. Why he was adopted before harboring the spirit I have no idea.
Perhaps this is where Trinitarians got their strange idea that Yahweh was his own son?
Quote:Which would mean that up until his baptism he was a flawed man who more than likely committed sins?
According to the Ebionites, Jesus was a man pure enough of heart to be given the honor of harboring the spirit.
Quote:Sounds like someone who could easily be physically killed.
Not until the spirit left the body of Jesus. The Ebionites thought God couldn't die and neither could any being who harbored the spirit of God. The spirit therefore departed from Jesus on the cross, so Jesus could be the sacrifice. Apparently, Jesus wasn't briefed on the plan, judging by his question "My god, why have you foresaken me?"
The Ebionites believed in salvation by keeping the Law (hence how the Matthew Jesus proclaims the old laws shall always stand). His sacrifice was only to fulfill the need for animal sacrifices.
(May 3, 2011 at 4:54 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Thats why the first thing I asked was if it would be a parallel time or linear, and how would we know? He is asking that you overlook that detail.
Or it could be Stephen King's idea of time travel.
If you go into the past, you discover that we as beings are constantly moving forward in time, so all you would find are empty buildings. There would be no opportunity to change the past because human beings have moved on. Also colors are dulled out, chemical reactions don't work as well and eventually a hoard of evil flying pac men come through and devour everything.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 5:15 pm
(May 3, 2011 at 4:54 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Thats why the first thing I asked was if it would be a parallel time or linear, and how would we know? He is asking that you overlook that detail.
I wrote: Linear / Parallel - assumptions you can make on your own. You choose.
Ogg chose the former. You chose the latter. (there are no wrong answers Rev.)
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 5:18 pm
(May 3, 2011 at 4:35 pm)oggtheclever Wrote: No. Because the very fact that he travelled back in time was always going to happen and is part of history and history tells us that he did not succeed.
That's why we need to go back and time and stop Biff from giving the sports almanac to himself.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 6:09 pm
(May 3, 2011 at 5:15 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: (May 3, 2011 at 4:54 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Thats why the first thing I asked was if it would be a parallel time or linear, and how would we know? He is asking that you overlook that detail.
I wrote: Linear / Parallel - assumptions you can make on your own. You choose.
Ogg chose the former. You chose the latter. (there are no wrong answers Rev.)
The I would flat out say that you would travel back and it would become parallel. those you left behind would not get the benefit of your actions in the past. You would wind up creating a new future on a different time line...that is, if that time line you traveled to is anywhere close to resemble what we have now
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm
No, Jesus being God can see into the future and avoid any such attempt. No, Jesus had a legion of angels ready to stop anything from happening to Him before His time to go to the cross. No, satan would have done that very thing if it were possible. No, people tried but were unable to kill Him because He knew what was in their hearts and slipped away. You can not stop the absolute will of God.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 11:17 pm
(This post was last modified: May 3, 2011 at 11:19 pm by reverendjeremiah.)
(May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: No, Jesus being God can see into the future and avoid any such attempt. You mean free will doesnt exist?
(May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: No, Jesus had a legion of angels ready to stop anything from happening to Him before His time to go to the cross. Wow, I am REALLY impressed!
(May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: No, satan would have done that very thing if it were possible. ..and how do yo know that he hasnt already and that he is responsible for the bible you have now. What if Satans true name is "Jesus"?
(May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: No, people tried but were unable to kill Him because He knew what was in their hearts and slipped away. WOW. I am VERY impressed! Scuttled off like a bug..but a royal bug!
(May 3, 2011 at 10:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: You can not stop the absolute will of God. I guess that rules out freewill then.
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RE: Bringing Down the King
May 3, 2011 at 11:38 pm
Quote:You mean free will doesnt exist?
Not for G-C. He's just a slave of his superstitions.
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