I Love You Enough to Burn You

[Killman]

Okay Billy, here are the guidelines. If you clean your room, I will give you a mansion filled with anything that your little heart desires, but if you don't, I am going to light you on fire.

[salty]

Hello,
I wanted to express my opinion of your biblical views of God's love and Hell, mostly because I believe you're speaking from your own experience of Christians and not your research in the Bible.

Christians are constantly equating their "relationship to god" to a relationship between a father and his child. Ok, lets play that out for a moment. I will keep the Xtian views as basic (and scriptual) as possible.

Salty: Father to child references are used in the Bible, but also bride and groom, master and servant and employer to worker. There are multiple ways to compare a Christian relationship with God, but for people who have never experienced God's love we liken him to a Father, when he is many things to us; a friend, a companion, a provider, a teacher, etc. Usually these things represent a human father, so that is the closest word we have for the intensity of God's love for those who know very little about the Bible and do not care to explore it.

Xtian view: God created you. As a child he protects you. He loves you dearly.
My wife and I created a son. He's turning 3 soon. I love him more than life itself.
Salty: As a father you now understand how intense love is for a child, therefore you now have a personal sample of what it means to desire to sacrifice yourself for your child, should your son ever run into trouble. The reason God's love differs from your love for your child is that Jesus died a gruesome death for every person before any of us ever knew his name or the reason he was being killed. Here's an example: You can see a man running toward a high school with bombs strapped to his chest, you have two choices, get your wife and child as far from the school as possible or wrestle the man to the ground with the likely result of your death. You choose to leave your wife and child, allow yourself to be blown to nothing and save 1500 students that don't even know your name." Imagine this on a worldwide scale? In that sense only God could show that kind of all consuming love, because loving a child that comes from your body is easy, but loving people who don't love you, don't want anything to do with you and easily forget you is...divine.

Xtian view: God doesn't want to punish you, but he has to chastise your evil actions.
I don't like disciplining my son, but I know I have to because I don't want him to be a selfish prick when he's older.
Salty: Discipline is the best way to show you care. Suppose you were learning to fight in a dojo and every time you messed up what the instructor showed you he came over and said, "hey, just keep going, be yourself." You would probably question if he cared, about you, about your growth, about how your represent him, about how you represent the dojo. And soon when competition comes around you would probably feel really uncomfortable fighting, because no one ever corrected you, and you know that you did something wrong, you know you're not perfect! When God corrects people, he does it because he cares about them, he wants them to grow, he wants to them to represent him well, and he wants them to be prepared to stand, depending on him for guidance. You may see God's punishment as very harsh or in some cases not harsh enough, but God knows all the details and he understands people's intentions, therefore I believe all his ways are completely just.

Xtian view: God wants, even commands you to love and respect him.
I do so want my son to love me and I look forward to him telling me that every day.
Salty: If you have dedicated yourself to serving Jesus Christ, then yes, you are commanded to love him with all your body, spirit and mind, because you have declared to the world you are following him. If you have dedicated yourself to serving what you believe whether it's another religion or just yourself, then he's not talking to you. Let's go back to the dojo example. If you were training in a dojo and your Sensei told you the rules of his school you would honor them, correct? Does your Sensei then go into the street and grab ordinary people who are not interested in martial arts and tell them to obey his rules? No! He's not talking to them, he's talking to you, the one who came to learn at his feet. So, if you don't believe in God, then keep living the way you want to live, the Lord has given everyone the ability to choose.

Xtian view: God gets angry when you deny his existence.
My son has told me that he doesn't like me and he doesn't want to play with me. Admittedly, it hurts.
Salty: God is slow to anger, he's not feeling anger when you deny his existence instead it's probably pain. A mixture of frustration, sadness, anguish, pity and understanding. The Lord knows you better than you'll ever know yourself, therefore he's aware of what stops you from believing him, all of the harsh circumstances around your childhood, your teens and otherwise, he's aware of what that has done to you. He wants to mend those wounds, he wants to restore you, but you must choose him. He loves you dearly and sends people to tell you about him, but he cannot go against his own will. And according to his will, he gave humans freedom of choice, we can draw close to him or separate ourselves from him.

Xtian views: God, in his hurt and anger, prepares a place of eternal torment for his child.
When my son occassionally hurts my feelings I ..... wait ...... what?
Salty: If you take a look at the book of Revelation, chapter 20, you can begin in verse 7 or you can read the whole chapter. Hell was created for Satan (the Accuser) who took 1/3 of the angelic population into battle with him against God. Lucifer, the highest angel, on par and perhaps above Michael, wanted God's power, he wanted to be inserted into God's crew with the Son and Spirit. And God said that it would never come to pass. When God created us humans we were unable to sin, therefore Hell was a place that we wouldn't and couldn't go. Lucifer tempted us to see if we had the same desire that he did, to be like God. God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he told her that we would die if we did. Lucifer came in the form of a snake and told her that she would be like God, knowing good and evil, that she wouldn't die, so she ate the fruit and gave it to Adam and he ate it too. Now, we creatures who once had no sin, were sinners, the original sin: disobedience. We also had the ability to continue sinning because we had knowledge of what was good and what was evil, therefore we were fully capable of choosing to do one or the other. Lucifer held the keys of death and we gave them to him with our disobedience. Therefore, the only way for the Lord to ruin Satan's plan was to go to Earth in the form of a human, live a life of sinlessness, be tempted for 30+ years to commit evil and die on the cross, taking upon himself the sins of the entire human population. When Jesus rose again, the work was complete. Now, those who believe trust in the saving power of Jesus Christ and those that do not believe will need to rely on themselves.

Xtian views: God will some day turn his back on you if you don't tell him you love him.
I could never turn my back on my son or any of my children especially for that.
Salty: God will never forsake anyone who calls on him, he had to leave Christ for a moment so that he could suffer for our sins, but shortly afterward he returned to Christ and resurrected him. God reaches for us and pursues each of us for our entire lives, he wants each of us to know him. It's best to look at the decision to accept Christ as accepting an invitation from a palace for a free room. In the mail you receive a common looking invitation and it says the king wants you to live in the palace with him because it's the safest place in town. Let's say your town has a lot of earthquakes leveling buildings and floods, but nothing has ever happened to the palace. The invitation tells you the offer is extended for as long as you live, but every day there's a chance of an earthquake so come soon! Just think of how you would react? Wouldn't you think it's ridiculous that a king would want a common person to live in his house? That a king would want to protect a common person he doesn't know? In the end you may reject it, but there's someone that believes and they look into it. They do some research and they visit, then they move in and follow the rules of the palace and the king and when disaster strikes and people start dying and buildings start falling the palace stands, and the king is heart broken, because he told everyone about his palace. He told them it was the safest place. They chose to ignore him, therefore they pay the consequences. Choosing Christ is like choosing his palace, choosing yourself is like choosing Hell, because it's copying the ways of Lucifer, he chose himself, so he chose damnation. If you choose Lucifer's way, you'll go to be with him, if you choose God's way, you'll go to be with him.

Xtian views: God will burn you in a place of ultimate terror - as he will for all his children who didn't show love for him.
WAIT WHAT!?!? No matter WHAT my son may have done to me - I could never harm him, let alone burn him for years on end. What the hell? ....o, exactly.
Salty: Hell is very terrifying, even demons fear it. God wants to see everyone reconciled back to him, but he gives the freedom of choice to each of us. Who is God to you? Is he all knowing and all powerful to you? Is he just and holy to you? If you think that God should bow to your standards of right and wrong, if you think God should be in submission to how you want to live your life, if you think that God should praise you for being disobedient towards him, then you don't want to actually want to worship God, you want God to worship you. But in the end, Heaven is God's house, it's his palace, and those who want God to worship them are thinking like Lucifer did.

I hope I'm not breaking any of the rules. I am not trying to preach, instead I am sharing my understanding of God Biblically and personally. If you would like Scripture for what I am saying please message me and I will provide references. For the examples, I may not be able to provide scripture for all of these, but I'll do my best. I hope that you have a deeper understanding of the Lord now, and I am open to discussing him with anyone. Thank you for reading this, and thank you for posting your thoughts of God. It makes me really happy to know that people wrestle with their ideas of him, it means that a piece of them is still searching.

Salty

[Welsh cake]

^ Your response needs a little work salty.

[Ace Otana]

[Napoléon]

Do you know what I love more than burning? When images fail to show in a post.

[The Grand Nudger]

Salty, we don't have a better understanding of "the lord", only your take on a story about "the lord". As with any interpretation, mileage may vary.

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You choose to leave your wife and child, allow yourself to be blown to nothing and save 1500 students that don't even know your name." Imagine this on a worldwide scale? In that sense only God could show that kind of all consuming love, because loving a child that comes from your body is easy, but loving people who don't love you, don't want anything to do with you and easily forget you is...divine.

---

We're asked to imagine this because it didn't actually happen.

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When God corrects people, he does it because he cares about them, he wants them to grow, he wants to them to represent him well, and he wants them to be prepared to stand, depending on him for guidance. You may see God's punishment as very harsh or in some cases not harsh enough, but God knows all the details and he understands people's intentions, therefore I believe all his ways are completely just.

---

Don't you worry about the fire, brimstone, and eternal punishment, you deserve it because I say so.

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Does your Sensei then go into the street and grab ordinary people who are not interested in martial arts and tell them to obey his rules? No! He's not talking to them, he's talking to you, the one who came to learn at his feet. So, if you don't believe in God, then keep living the way you want to live, the Lord has given everyone the ability to choose.

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Does the sensei beat the shit out of random passersby to advertise his services? Again you offer the choice between shit and a shit sandwich, I'll have the chicken.

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God is slow to anger, he's not feeling anger when you deny his existence instead it's probably pain. A mixture of frustration, sadness, anguish, pity and understanding. The Lord knows you better than you'll ever know yourself, therefore he's aware of what stops you from believing him, all of the harsh circumstances around your childhood, your teens and otherwise, he's aware of what that has done to you. He wants to mend those wounds, he wants to restore you, but you must choose him. He loves you dearly and sends people to tell you about him, but he cannot go against his own will. And according to his will, he gave humans freedom of choice, we can draw close to him or separate ourselves from him.

---

Yes, slow to anger, except when he isn't. He's also very needy. Wait a minute, he knows why I don't believe, knows the punishment, and does nothing? God's a bastard, an omnipotent bastard that is suspiciously incapable of changing his mind.

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If you take a look at the book of Revelation, chapter 20, you can begin in verse 7 or you can read the whole chapter(I'd rather not but what the hell). Hell was created for Satan (the Accuser) who took 1/3 of the angelic population into battle with him against God. Lucifer, the highest angel, on par and perhaps above Michael, wanted God's power, he wanted to be inserted into God's crew with the Son and Spirit. And God said that it would never come to pass. When God created us humans we were unable to sin, therefore Hell was a place that we wouldn't and couldn't go. Lucifer tempted us to see if we had the same desire that he did, to be like God. God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he told her that we would die if we did. Lucifer came in the form of a snake and told her that she would be like God, knowing good and evil, that she wouldn't die, so she ate the fruit and gave it to Adam and he ate it too. Now, we creatures who once had no sin, were sinners, the original sin: disobedience. We also had the ability to continue sinning because we had knowledge of what was good and what was evil, therefore we were fully capable of choosing to do one or the other. Lucifer held the keys of death and we gave them to him with our disobedience. Therefore, the only way for the Lord to ruin Satan's plan was to go to Earth in the form of a human, live a life of sinlessness, be tempted for 30+ years to commit evil and die on the cross, taking upon himself the sins of the entire human population. When Jesus rose again, the work was complete. Now, those who believe trust in the saving power of Jesus Christ and those that do not believe will need to rely on themselves.

---

Cool story bro (seriously..fairy armies and talking snakes and random rules of engagement?). All so you could abdicate any responsibility for your actions over to a third party? Sorry, don't buy it.

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God will never forsake anyone who calls on him, he had to leave Christ for a moment so that he could suffer for our sins, but shortly afterward he returned to Christ and resurrected him. God reaches for us and pursues each of us for our entire lives, he wants each of us to know him. It's best to look at the decision to accept Christ as accepting an invitation from a palace for a free room. In the mail you receive a common looking invitation and it says the king wants you to live in the palace with him because it's the safest place in town. Let's say your town has a lot of earthquakes leveling buildings and floods, but nothing has ever happened to the palace. The invitation tells you the offer is extended for as long as you live, but every day there's a chance of an earthquake so come soon! Just think of how you would react? Wouldn't you think it's ridiculous that a king would want a common person to live in his house? That a king would want to protect a common person he doesn't know? In the end you may reject it, but there's someone that believes and they look into it. They do some research and they visit, then they move in and follow the rules of the palace and the king and when disaster strikes and people start dying and buildings start falling the palace stands, and the king is heart broken, because he told everyone about his palace. He told them it was the safest place. They chose to ignore him, therefore they pay the consequences. Choosing Christ is like choosing his palace, choosing yourself is like choosing Hell, because it's copying the ways of Lucifer, he chose himself, so he chose damnation. If you choose Lucifer's way, you'll go to be with him, if you choose God's way, you'll go to be with him.

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Wait, you can choose, but only what you are told you can choose? That doesn't sound alot like free will. Again, I'd rather not live in this guys house, he's the one pulling the earthquake lever ffs!

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Hell (non-existent) is terrifying, even demons (non-existent) fear it. God (non-existent) wants to see everyone reconciled back to him, but he gives the freedom of choice (coercion) to each of us. Who is God to you? Is he all knowing and all powerful to you? Is he just and holy to you? If you think that God should bow to your standards of right and wrong, if you think God should be in submission to how you want to live your life, if you think that God should praise you for being disobedient towards him, then you don't want to actually want to worship God, you want God to worship you. But in the end, Heaven is God's house, it's his palace, and those who want God to worship them are thinking like Lucifer did.

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Ignoring all of the fairies that crop up just in this segment, god can keep his house, because it sounds like a truly shitty place to live, and he sounds like a terrible landlord.

Do you have any evidence for any of this? Is there any reason behind it at all? Why should I believe any of it?

[salty]

Sorry it took me forever to respond. When I think about the reasons why you should believe anything I just stated my response is:

you shouldnt! you should question, explore and learn for yourself, people who believe what others say have faith that they are telling the truth. since you don't know me in person my credibility is nothing, moreover, since you have already explored you have come to your own conclusions.

So, all in all, i just typed all that for fun, that's cool

[Ace Otana]

Who is God to you?

Just a concept made by man and is no more real than any other fictional character.
A direct insult to human intelligence on a huge scale, and an overwhelming embarrassment. Especially to any real intelligence out there in the deep cosmos that could be observing us.
A painful slap to the face reminding us that we have a lot of growing up to do and not quite ready for the next great step for mankind.

[The Grand Nudger]

Your credibility would be suspect even in person if you asked me to believe this. It isn't out of ignorance that I dismiss your religion as a fairy tale. Some of us heathens do read.

[CoxRox]

The idea that the majority of all humans who have ever lived will end up enduring miserable, lonely, painful existences for ever, is so abhorrent to me that it was the main straw that broke the camel's back in regards to my 'faith' in the 'Christian' God. Most Christians I know actually believe in literal 'hell's flames' and don't bat an eye lid at the idea. I couldn't in all honesty associate with people who believe such a warped, sadistic teaching. There is a growing number of 'Christians' who don't believe in a literal hell etc, but how do you reconcile Jesus' parable about the Richman and Lazarus with a non literal interpretation? Yes, lot's of it is symbolic supposedly, but the notion of suffering after death and it not being ended, does seem to be a feasable understanding of the parable.

Something is really messed up here.....