Some Tips for Theists on an Atheist Forum

[Rev. Rye]

After going into a debate with a Theist, I found an article entitled, "How Not to Convert An Atheist." After reading the article, I decided to take the points that the author (Ebonmuse) put in the article, and I decided to tweak them significantly for a forum-specific list, and decided on creating an article that could, after some tweaking by forumers, work as a supplement to Darwinian's "Important Information For Theists."

Although theists are more than welcome to join in with debates and discussions on these forums (after all, debates get more fun with more philosophical diversity) you must remember that this is primarily a forum for like minded individuals. And to keep some good old John Wayne-style fair play on the forums, please keep the following in mind when posting and we should all get along very nicely:

• There is No Single Atheist Ideology.
  Despite all the things you may have read, all atheism entails can be summed up in the sentence: "There is no reason to believe a higher power exists." That's all atheism is, and that's just about the only common ground you will find with atheists, on this forum, or, for that matter, anywhere else. And, for that matter, you may believe several stereotypes about atheists, things like that they're angry at God or just his followers, or are just simply bitter. Many of these stereotypes can be found in this TVTropes article, which goes into detail as to why these stereotypes are just not true. If you assume anything more than the italicized statement above about atheists, you run the risk of creating a strawman that any atheist who doesn't fit into your views can easily knock down. If you actually expect said atheist to convert, you will have failed miserably, as you would show you have no understanding for what they do and don't believe. And if we're going to do that, one might as well lump Christianity and Islam as one belief system. If you really want to know the finer points of one particular atheist's beliefs, just ask.
  
  For the record, just to go into the different subtypes of atheists:
  Agnostic- Agnostics believe that it is either unknown or unknowable whether or not God exists. That said, agnosticism is, in fact, compatible with both theism and atheism; it is possible for a theist to believe that it's impossible to know for certain whether or not God exists, but still believes. Simply put, agnosticism covers knowledge, and atheism covers belief.
  Weak (agnostic) Atheist- Odds are, most of the atheists you meet here will be weak atheists. They will admit that there is no way to prove whether or not God exists, but, likely due to the absence of evidence, doesn't believe.
  Strong Atheists- This type of atheist is the kind that will take the position that at least one kind of God definitely does not exist. More information can be found in the link.
  Apatheist- As the name may suggest, this kind of atheist couldn't care either way whether or not there is a God.
  Anti-Theist-Atheists who actively oppose theism.
  
  
• Nobody Speaks for every atheist.
  For many varieties of theism, there's some sort of sacred text that explains, at a basic level, what they believe in (Something like the Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, or even Dianetics). In addition, there may be some governing body that decides how the wisdom of that sacred text should be lived out today in everyday life (like the Roman Catholic church), or even a figurehead who explains to his followers just how he thinks we should live, based on his religion's precepts (think The Pope or the Dalai Lama.) Despite the impressions you may have gotten from people like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, or even, if you're old enough, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Atheists do not have any of those things. Yes, there are definitely atheist organizations, but none of them speak for all atheists. As mentioned before, atheism is a single belief that many people came to in several different ways. Thus, it should make sense that many different atheists have many differing beliefs. Just to take one facet, many atheists have differing political views: Ayn Rand became famous for becoming a strong advocate for Capitalism; Karl Marx essentially became known for, if not defining modern Communism, then giving them a convenient banner to rally under; Karl Rove was one of the masterminds behind the administration of George W. Bush, including the War in Iraq; John Lennon was a singer who wanted everybody to imagine a world where people had no reason to kill other people or to hoard possessions. All were atheists, and that was just about the only similarity their personal ideologies had, just like there are many differences in a more cohesive religion like Christianity.
  THAT SAID: reading books by atheists is still valuable in understanding atheism, but that still has its limits, as there's a very good chance that any given atheist you debate is going to disagree with any given atheist author on at least one point.
  
  
• Odds are, most of us already get at least the gist of your beliefs
  Let me express this in an axiomatic term: the more adherents are in your religion, the more likely that any given atheist is pretty knowledgeable in your religion. In addition, the more adherents your religion has, the more likely it is that there is somebody here who used to be a member of your religion. If you are a member of one of the world's major religions, most of us already know the gist of what you believe, and so, if you feel the need to write a sermon for us, you will be wasting your time. In practice, this warning goes triple for Christians, as, considering that this is an English-speaking forum, and that Christianity has tended to dominate English-speaking countries, for the majority of forumers, Christianity is the religion that they are most familiar with. In addition, do not assume that the only reason that atheists are atheists is because they haven't heard about their religion. This is flat out wrong, for reasons mentioned before. If you are looking for converts, condescension is one of the worst ways to do it.
  THAT SAID: If an atheist says something that shows their ignorance of your religion, then it's okay to enlighten them.
  
  
• Don't ignore sincere questions.
  As in any sort of discussion, if a person asks a question, there's a very good chance that they actually want an answer. If you evade or ignore them, their opinion of you and your beliefs will very likely drop, because they will likely think that you cannot defend your faith, but there is a fairly good chance that nobody can.
  THAT SAID: If you're overwhelmed by a sheer number of questions or if you cannot answer a given question, then there's a good idea for what you should do: just say so.
  
  
• Be ready to back up any assertions you may make
  If you post an argument for the existence of God, please bear in mind that there's a good chance that some atheist already has an argument against it. If you are a creationist and wish to post an argument specific to evolution, it is vital that you should know that there is a site called Talk.Origins which has an exhaustive list of counter-arguments to a great number of claims ranging from the apparently plausible to arguments so ridiculous even many creationists have disowned them. Please try to formulate these arguments with these objections in mind. In addition, some theists in the past have been known to make sweeping statements that would definitely demand being backed up, statements like "the entire universe has only been around for 6 millenia," or "After a priest performs a ritual, wine and crackers become literal flesh and blood," or "There is a Hell, and you're going to go there if you're not a part of my religion." However, if an atheist says something like "wait, what about all the evidence for the universe being a lot older?", or "since they still look and taste like wine and crackers, how does that work?", or "where's the evidence for this place and how would the existence of a place of eternal torment square with the existence of a benevolent, all-poweful being?," and you don't back up your statements, do not expect atheists to convert. In addition, if you say that your belief systems should be obvious to anybody who has neither a huge ego problem or he has an evil spirit controlling him, then you will have alienated everybody who reads your post.
  
  Here is a short list of things that, apart from detracting from the discussion, are often considered irrational, rude, or disrespectful:
  1) Telling them that since there isn't a god they might as well kill themselves now. Atheists, as people who live in societies, still tend to be bound by rules.
  2) Telling them that since there isn't a god they might as well kill other people. Ditto.
  3) Telling them they don't believe because an evil power is controlling their lives. Claiming that you can see something that nobody else seems to be able to see just makes you look mentally ill.
  4) Trying to make your belief appear more truthful by TYPING IN CAPITALS. If shouting made things true, then Brian Blessed would be the smartest man alive.
  5) Telling them you know God exists because the Bible says so and that the Bible is true because God said so. Atheists are not likely to give any particular weight to your favourite holy book.
  6) Insisting that they really do believe in God but are afraid to admit it. This is not true, and impossible to verify if it is.
  7) Ending your posts with “god loves you” or “I’ll pray for you.” It's just a waste of bandwidth.
  8) Arguing that evolution isn’t true by simply pointing to a site such as AnswersInGenesis or being so ignorant as to say "it's just a theory". In the real world, "theory" is given to ideas that are pretty well-established.
  9) Quoting Psalm 14:1. I refer you to #5.
  10) Asking them to open their hearts and give Jesus a chance. Many people did years ago, and they ended up becoming atheists.
  11) Telling them they are going to hell. I will go into more detail on this point later.
  12) Having huge walls of text (especially if they include multiple videos). Nobody wants to read something like this.
  13) Having a paragraph that's 38 sentences long with little or no punctuation, without having the courtesy of being an award-winning German language author.
  
  
• Do not threaten, or use personal insults on forumers.
  This should, once again, be a blindingly obvious point, and a bare minimum for any sort of rational discussion, but, alas, there's still some theists who, when their favorite arguments and assertions have been exhausted, like to insult individual atheists. Condescending to other people makes no friends, and it just makes you (and, by extention, your position) look worse. Of course, issuing threats, which isn't a very effective way of getting sincere converts, makes you look even worse. For the record, for many people, warning people that they'll go to Hell does constitute a threat, albeit not a very effective one, as we will see in the next point. Strive to emulate the virtues of whichever moral teacher you seek guidance from, and try to respond with the compassion they would expect from you. If you're a Muslim, it would probably be best if you kept to the less violent sections of the Quran.
  THAT SAID: You are not in the Bible belt here where 90% of people you meet agree with your position. Expect a little-off-the-cuff feed back that's not by nature nice. Once you can establish that you are following these guidelines, you'll be more than welcome to most on this forum as it gives them the chance to practice debating or look outside of their theistic world view.
  
  
• Warning/Threatening that atheists go to Hell will not work.
  The major reason that the claim that atheists to go to Hell does not work is because Atheists, having eschewed the concept of God, are not very likely to suddenly come to believe in Hell or Heaven, and, to many atheists, the claim is just about as convincing as saying that if you're not good, Jack Skellington will break into your homes and make your Christmas horrifying. This, in additon, is one of the claims you will be likely asked to back up, as mentioned earlier. Be expected to be asked to establish, in descending order, A) That Hell really does exist, B) That atheists, among others, go there, and C) That the existence of a place of eternal torment is somehow reconcilable with the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent deity, if you ever play this card.
  
  
• Being downright insulting is right out.
  Some people think it's a good idea to join the forums and just go straight into insulting people. These people are often described as "trolls," or, in a more precise term, "morons." It should go without saying that just insulting people you don't know from Adam is widely considered to be an extremely counter-productive strategy for getting your message across. To see why, here's a case study: one forumer, named h-n, decided to just bring a rambling post about why Islam is the one true religion, and when she found that the atheists on the forum were underwhelmed by her screed, she promptly resorted to insulting everyone on the forums. Within 48 hours, she was sent to The Gauntlet. Within 24 hours of this, she was banned. An atheist forumer ended up doing a similar thing here and wound up banned in the space of seven hours. Simply put, you are not a rapper, and trying to start a feud won't help the message sell.
  THAT SAID: If you can at least show you have at least some wit in you, you might get by. This is a big part of why some users with a reputation for being acidic with religious people, are still here.
  
  
• Don't try to speculate on the causes of our Atheism.
  Some theists believe that the only reasons that people become atheists are that their childhoods were abusive, that there's been a big tragedy in their lives, or that the churchmen in their lives were bad. As a result, this particular type of theist has a tendency to try and play Freud with people they don't know from Adam (and vice versa). Simply put, there's a lot of reasons people become atheists, and there's certainly people who stopped believing for those reasons given above, but then again, there's many other reasons that people stopped believing. In fact, ex-SNL Castmember Julia Sweeney traced the origins of her non-belief directly to her reading the Bible for the first time. If, however, you are curious about the reason any atheist stopped believing in God, then just ask.
  
  
• When you make a mistake, admit it.
  Roman philosopher Seneca once said, "Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum." Simply put, it means that to err is human, but to repeat error is diabolical. If a theist makes an honest mistake, there's a pretty good chance that this in and of itself will be forgiven on the condition that, if corrected, the mistake is admitted and corrected. If, however, they keep repeating that claim even after being corrected, it makes them look dishonest, and why should anybody believe somebody who is being blatantly dishonest? Strive to be intellectually honest.
  One example: In one lecture, creationist Kent Hovind was once found claiming that the Australopithecus specimen called Lucy was discovered with its leg bones several miles away from the head. A scientist heard him, and noted that the leg bones were of a different individual from "Lucy." Years later, he was found on tape repeating the claim.
  
  
• Be wary of Quotes.
  For some theists, just quoting their own particular favourite passages of scripture is the best way they think of to get their message across. Unfortunately, this effort is problematic for several reasons, namely that because Atheists are not likely to put any particular weight to scripture, a long string of quotes from the Bible or the Quran is just about as convincing as an equally large string of quotes from Hemingway or Shakespeare. Simply put, it would just be a waste of time and possibly bandwidth. This also goes for including several quotes from scientists as proof of God's existence, especially if the debate is about evolution and the scientist quoted is either not a biologist, died before the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species, or both. Quotes in and of themselves prove nothing.
  THAT SAID: There's a good way and a bad way to use an appeal to authority, as shown in this link. Using a respected authority to claim justified belief in something is different from using a respected authority to claim absolute knowledge of something.
  

At a very basic level, the point of this list can be boiled down to "Do Not Demand respect, Earn It," and, if you follow these points, you could very well earn it.
So, for any additional points, and possible corrections, please reply and I'll see what I can do.

[Faith No More]

There is No Single Atheist Ideology
Don't try to speculate on the causes of our Atheism

I think these two are the most important, especially no speculation why people are atheists. That pisses me off.

[fr0d0]

Good work Rev

Thanks for adding some balance. You could add more theistic counterpoints too....

There is no single theist theology... belief in God is much the same as the lack of belief in God... neither is specific, so don't assume.

Nobody speaks for every atheist, just like in theism people can adhere to all manor of philosophies... humanist, nihilist, absurdist, existentialist, for example... or a mixture of a few. People have their own thoughts... respect that.

Odds are... people will have some understanding of what you're saying... but we're all here to learn.

Backing up assertions works both ways. Be prepared to substantiate, don't expect to make claims and then not be prepared to back them up. That riles.

Insults are childish. But we like to do it because it's fun. Non theists will try their hardest to get a rise... if you're the sensitive type, be prepared for a fire baptism. And bring marshmallows.

Some Atheists will speculate about a theist's sanity, ignore reasonable points and expect you to make a huge exception for them. This is perfectly normal and to be expected. Try not to act surprised. The clever dumb scale applies to all people no matter what their theistic position.

Dishonesty isn't liked by anyone. Bloody mindedness is a kind of badge of honour. Learn the difference and you could save yourself some heartache.

Thanks for listening

[Violet]

Does this mean I can't threaten people away from lurking with the mighty pink and fluffy Mr. Bun Bun?

He's so cute ^_^

[Minimalist]

You're talking to the wall, Rev.

Religious shitwits are the dumbest fucks on earth.

[fr0d0]

You're talking to the wall, Rev.

Religious shitwits are the dumbest fucks on earth.

Specimen 'A'

[Strongbad]

You're talking to the wall, Rev.

Religious shitwits are the dumbest fucks on earth.

I normally don't do "smileys", but I couldn't resist in this case

[reverendjeremiah]

Can I be specimen 'B' ?

[fr0d0]

Yeah just prove a stereotype Rev

[Darwinian]

I've already written a guide for theists, but that is pretty good as well