The problem with muslims...

[Epimethean]

Amtrak to joy!

[martin02]

I'm not happy with the level of rhetoric. If I was a declared Muslim on this forum I'm not sure I'd want to participate in this thread either.

[Epimethean]

Well, there you have it: Freedom of choice obtains.

[Napoléon]

I'm not happy with the level of rhetoric. If I was a declared Muslim on this forum I'm not sure I'd want to participate in this thread either.

Level of rhetoric? What the frick are you talking about?

Besides he's already said he may participate if he has time. The idea of the thread wasn't just so that we could all beat down on muslims, it was intended to raise discussion on why they have segregated communities and are viewed by the western world as having a very 'you're with us or without us' attitude.

I more than welcome rayaan's input and am genuinely interested to here what he has to say on the matter.

[Rayaan]

I'm going to make this short and simple because I never lived in the UK. I don't have a good idea of what Muslims are like over there.

But, what I've been reading so far, it seems that the British Muslims tend to live in their own segregated communities, and have these certain "no go" areas, which makes the non-Muslims a little bit unwelcome for that reason. But the idea of "no go" may be due to the the non-Muslims feeling like foreigners in their own country and thus leading them to invent such a word. Another reason for the existence of such isolated communities may be caused by incidents of racist victimization of incoming Asian and/or Muslim families. I don't if this is true, but that's a possibility. Therefore, I think it's quite possible that the division is mostly influenced by racial views rather than by religious views.

The main threats comes from extremists, be it religious extremists or political extremists. I don't know if a lot of them exist in Britain. But, remember that there are 1.6 to 1.8 million British Muslims, and the media and self-interested parties will tend to focus on the handful of crazy Muslims they can find to justify their own agenda of hate and division. So, it would be far more conducive to focus on the views of the mainstream British Muslims. And I'm sure that most of them are not dangerous. They are decent people just like many of the Christians living there.

There may be a few schools, mosques, clubs, etc. which preach an 'extreme' form of Islam, and while most Muslims do not agree with this small minority, it seems as if their views are spreading further and further and affecting the country more negatively. But, what can you do now? Ban all the faith schools and mosques in the UK? No, but I think it would be a better thing to monitor the kids, especially the Muslim ones, to have a better influence as they are growing up so that there aren't radicalized and that they can be a good British citizen at the same time.

To many, of course, the spread of Islam is like the spreading of a mental virus. However, I will not argue with that because that is their own view since they don't believe in God and religion in the first place.

[Epimethean]

Are moderate Muslims standing up against the bloodshed and violence in a large way? Are they attempting educate their willfully ignorant brethren that the Koran does not need the heads of the infidels? What is actually going on in Islam?

[DaveD]

There may be a few schools, mosques, clubs, etc. which preach an 'extreme' form of Islam, and while most Muslims do not agree with this small minority, it seems as if their views are spreading further and further and affecting the country more negatively. But, what can you do now? Ban all the faith schools and mosques in the UK?

Ban faith schools, yes, but not mosques.
I agree with much of the rest of your post though. The racism, though it rears its ugly head from time to time, is nothing like as bad as it was in the '70s, but in those days it got so bad that minorities became isolated. This continues today as a kind of cultural memory.

[Minimalist]

But, what I've been reading so far, it seems that the British Muslims tend to live in their own segregated communities, and have these certain "no go" areas, which makes the non-Muslims a little bit unwelcome for that reason. But the idea of "no go" may be due to the the non-Muslims feeling like foreigners in their own country and thus leading them to invent such a word. Another reason for the existence of such isolated communities may be caused by incidents of racist victimization of incoming Asian and/or Muslim families. I don't if this is true, but that's a possibility. Therefore, I think it's quite possible that the division is mostly influenced by racial views rather than by religious views.

Rayaan, as a former New Yorker I have lots of experience with this kind of "ghetto mentality" among immigrant groups. Since the late 1840's when the first waves of German and Irish immigrants began fleeing Europe they have tended to cluster in certain areas. Sections of Manhattan are still known as "Little Italy" or "Chinatown." These days there are mainly some great ethnic restaurants in those spots. Flushing, Queens



has a large Asian community and the #7 subway line which runs from there to Manhattan is referred to as "the Orient Express." Astoria, Queens is known as a Greek enclave. Brighton Beach in Brooklyn is Russian. The list goes on. Their native tongues are spoken but anyone who wants to interact with the rest of the country learns English. My grandparents came from Italy in 1912. My grandfather spoke a heavily accented English but made himself understood. My grandmother spoke mainly Italian until the day she died. My father spoke enough Italian to serve as an interpreter for his unit during WWII...and amazingly the army sent him to Italy instead of the Pacific! I speak virtually no Italian and neither does my brother and that is the way it generally goes. The first generation holds on to the old ways, the second generation has a smattering and the third generation says "screw that...I'm an American."

In virtually all cases the groups who settled there have assimilated into mainstream American life. Some stay...many others move out. But they have the choice and the opportunity or at least did until the republicolibertarianazis started turning this country into nirvana for the rich only.

So the question which will have to be faced in Europe is will muslim immigrants assimilate into western culture within a couple of generations or will they isolate themselves behind their fatwas and burqas. If you move somewhere and wish to blend in you become a valuable citizen. If you move somewhere and seek to replace the existing culture you are an invader. Europe has a spotty track record on dealing with invaders.

[Anymouse]

What about the British turning Spain into a mini UK?

When I was stationed in Spain with the US Navy, I noted that myself.

As my (ex-)wife and I lived off base in Rota (Cadiz province - Costa del Sol), although we weren't permanent residents (stationed there for three years), we set about learning Spanish (unlike most Americans there) and used it exclusively with the locals (aided a bit by the Portuguese I already knew from being an exchange student to Brazil and excepting when a local wanted to practise English), shopped in the local markets, bought our petrol from the local station though it was higher than the Navy Exchange, made friends with our neighbours (useful since one of them was an officer in the Guardia Civil), attended civic events, opened a local bank account in pesetas for doing business, obtained Spanish drivers' licences instead of driving on our International ones, I obtained a Spanish amateur radio licence rather than using the reciprocal rules for ham, and went to the annual municipal fair.

The only exception was in religion; as mine was illegal in Spain, I did not publicly practise it.

But on our driving tours to Gibraltar and the Costa del Sol, it was readily apparent that the British tourists and pensioners living there were having none of that. They segregated themselves almost completely from the Andalucista population. Where they had more money than the local Spaniards, they drove them out and made effective British enclaves. The Spaniards of my acquaintance continually griped about the English pushing them out of their own country.

It seems to be like that everywhere. Immigrants often tend to stick together for the same reason any other group of people that have something in common do: they have something in common. Language is particularly tricky, as is religion.

Note here in the USA we currently have a representative in the House that wants a moratorium on mosques (we have enough he says), and had a president that thought atheists should not be citizens and Wiccans should not be allowed in the military, or indeed Wicca should be outlawed.

"Integrating" into the culture for an atheist here would mean becoming a Christian. Atheism is not really considered part of the culture of the USA (though many of its founders could be argued to have atheistic leanings). "Integrating into the culture" is what the majority of a culture use as a bully-boy to suppress other views (largely those of immigrants), and every wave of immigration into the USA has seen its discrimination because they were immigrants, not because they "failed to integrate." Though I am the third generation of Polish immigrants, I still get the Polish humour every time someone sees my surname; they think its funny to make humour at the expense of my family that fled the Nazi invasion of Poland.

The locals never want to integrate with immigrants; integration is a two-way street. "You can live here but you gotta be like me" is not freedom. It is a different sort of slavery: a slavery to a culture that says "you must be like us."

[downbeatplumb]

To many, of course, the spread of Islam is like the spreading of a mental virus. However, I will not argue with that because that is their own view since they don't believe in God and religion in the first place.

It wasnt always like this.

It seems that the younger muslims are being more demonstrative of their muslimness since 7/7 and to a lesser extent 9/11.

I've only recently started seeing women in burqas and they are scary, I shiver everytime I see one, its an involuntary action, (Because of the burqas, most women dont get that response i hasten to add)