God Yahweh Allah was a volcano.

[Minimalist]

Common in Egypt to simply chisel the name off a monument and replace it with your own. Voila. The building becomes yours. Much cheaper to recarve a cartouche than to build a new temple. For that matter, the re-cycling of religious buildings is quite commonplace throughout history. You just hang an "Under New Management" sign on it. The finest example is probably the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul which began as the largest xtian church in the world until the Ottoman's took the city and made it a mosque. Let us never allow our xtian pals to forget that they stole Vatican Hill from the Cult of Sol Invictus ( Mithras) and re-cycled it into the holiest place in christendom....complete with tombs for 'saints' who died 3 centuries before the site became xtian!

Atenism was so short-lived that Amenhotep IV ( I'm tired of calling the little shit Akhenaten ) doubtlessly had to recruit priests from the ranks of Amun followers. If they can switch once they can switch back. I doubt that many of the fuckers would have been willing to die to remain loyal to Aten. Maybe one or two had to take one for the team?

[theVOID]

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Psalm 18:8 Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

Psalm 50:3 Our God comes and will not be silent; a fire devours before him, and around him a tempest rages.

Psalm 97:3 Fire goes before him and consumes his foes on every side.

Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Revelation 4:5, "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings, and thunderings, and voices."

Psalm 18:12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning.

Job 26:14 And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?"

Job 36:29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion?

Job 37:4 After that comes the sound of his roar; he thunders with his majestic voice. When his voice resounds, he holds nothing back.

I could go on for days but surely I can get one atheist on here to say what not one Christian could say elsewhere....'Yes, it looks like Yahweh was a volcano.'

Yep? Nope?

That's definitely a good start... Can you date these verses to volcanic activity at all?

---

It might take me a while to get through the whole book so here is the part I've done tonight...

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud

Exodus 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

Exodus 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Exodus 21:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Exodus 24:2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

Exodus 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

Exodus 24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Exodus 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Exodus 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Leviticus 10:6 bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.

To contrast this, are there any descriptions of the deity that can't be interpreted as a volcano?

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If the British tolerate this they need to have their fucking heads examined. About time for Pat Condell, or someone else with some balls, to organize a beer drinking party down the main street.

Booze and Ham day!

[Hannah]

Magnanimous priests? Shock

There’s an argument I never expected to hear from Minimalist.

Why is getting what you want "magnanimous," Pap? It isn't as if they agreed to let the Aten cult exist side by side with Amun ( a decidedly Roman solution to such a problem, btw.) Letting them back in without fighting ( which can get messy ) is a highly profitable solution and priests are always in favor of profit...as long as the profit ends up in their pious pockets!

I believe there are now a couple of schools of thought on the fate of the old gods/temples/priests during the Amarna period. The original “Those guys sure took it up the ass” hypothesis saw them loose Pharaoh’s recognition and financial support, the priests laid off, and the temples closed. A newer “It wasn’t so bad after all” school of thought seems to be gaining support lately though.

If you go with the original hypothesis on the fate of the priests of the old gods then your plan B, kill them, seems a more likely scenario than welcoming the maverick priests back into the fold. The old school priests would have been acting quite magnanimously to welcome the upstarts back into the fold if they had been taking it up the ass for the past several years. There was a concerted effort to erase all traces of Akhetaten and his upstart cult within a relatively short time of his death. That being the case, it would at least seem that someone wasn’t happy with him or his upstart religion.

I've read about foreign priests being killed in the OT. Just trying to find it.

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 18:8 Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.

Psalm 50:3 Our God comes and will not be silent; a fire devours before him, and around him a tempest rages.

Psalm 97:3 Fire goes before him and consumes his foes on every side.

Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Revelation 4:5, "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings, and thunderings, and voices."

Psalm 18:12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning.

Job 26:14 And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?"

Job 36:29 Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion?

Job 37:4 After that comes the sound of his roar; he thunders with his majestic voice. When his voice resounds, he holds nothing back.

I could go on for days but surely I can get one atheist on here to say what not one Christian could say elsewhere....'Yes, it looks like Yahweh was a volcano.'

Yep? Nope?

That's definitely a good start... Can you date these verses to volcanic activity at all?

---

It might take me a while to get through the whole book so here is the part I've done tonight...

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

Exodus 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain

Exodus 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud

Exodus 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

Exodus 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exodus 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.

Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Exodus 21:21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

Exodus 24:2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

Exodus 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exodus 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.

Exodus 24:15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

Exodus 24:16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Exodus 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Exodus 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Leviticus 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Leviticus 10:6 bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.

To contrast this, are there any descriptions of the deity that can't be interpreted as a volcano?

---

If the British tolerate this they need to have their fucking heads examined. About time for Pat Condell, or someone else with some balls, to organize a beer drinking party down the main street.

Booze and Ham day!

If I'm correct and they did find themselves at a volcano and volcanic field in Saudi then yes, there may have been activity when they were there. I've researched the fields (called Harrat) and volcanos and most have had activity in the last 6000 years. It's probably impossible to get good dating information the usual way (ash settlement layers, etc) as the Saudis do not like much interference and I'm sure the last thing they would want is Israel laying claim to some of their land. I'll keep seeing what I can find out.

All verses from Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers that describe Yahweh are in my list, meaning he can only be described as an active volcano....with the exception of angels, which I suspect originated from flames in natural gas leaks, etc. I believe the very first time the Hebrews actually thought they saw Yahweh was when they looked at the volcano at around Exodus 19. I believe that when they looked and saw fire coming out of the top of the volcano, they thought that was a sign of their god coming out to show himself. So when they later see flames coming out of the ground, or lava river flames devouring things, they think it's a part of Yahweh.

Bacon butties smell the most

[Hannah]

Lots of priest killing here. I'm not familiar with the priests you mentioned Min but this does show how the Hebrews wiped out anything idolatrous. So if priests of pagan gods went missing, my bet would be the Hebrews were responsible.


2 Kings 22 Josiah’s Religious Reforms

23 Then the king summoned all the elders of Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And the king went up to the Temple of the Lord with all the people of Judah and Jerusalem, along with the priests and the prophets—all the people from the least to the greatest. There the king read to them the entire Book of the Covenant that had been found in the Lord’s Temple. 3 The king took his place of authority beside the pillar and renewed the covenant in the Lord’s presence. He pledged to obey the Lord by keeping all his commands, laws, and decrees with all his heart and soul. In this way, he confirmed all the terms of the covenant that were written in the scroll, and all the people pledged themselves to the covenant.

4 Then the king instructed Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second rank and the Temple gatekeepers to remove from the Lord’s Temple all the articles that were used to worship Baal, Asherah, and all the powers of the heavens. The king had all these things burned outside Jerusalem on the terraces of the Kidron Valley, and he carried the ashes away to Bethel. 5 He did away with the idolatrous priests, who had been appointed by the previous kings of Judah, for they had offered sacrifices at the pagan shrines throughout Judah and even in the vicinity of Jerusalem. They had also offered sacrifices to Baal, and to the sun, the moon, the constellations, and to all the powers of the heavens. 6 The king removed the Asherah pole from the Lord’s Temple and took it outside Jerusalem to the Kidron Valley, where he burned it. Then he ground the ashes of the pole to dust and threw the dust over the graves of the people. 7 He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the Lord, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole.

8 Josiah brought to Jerusalem all the priests who were living in other towns of Judah. He also defiled the pagan shrines, where they had offered sacrifices—all the way from Geba to Beersheba. He destroyed the shrines at the entrance to the gate of Joshua, the governor of Jerusalem. This gate was located to the left of the city gate as one enters the city. 9 The priests who had served at the pagan shrines were not allowed* to serve at the Lord’s altar in Jerusalem, but they were allowed to eat unleavened bread with the other priests.

10 Then the king defiled the altar of Topheth in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, so no one could ever again use it to sacrifice a son or daughter in the fire* as an offering to Molech. 11 He removed from the entrance of the Lord’s Temple the horse statues that the former kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were near the quarters of Nathan-melech the eunuch, an officer of the court.* The king also burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.

12 Josiah tore down the altars that the kings of Judah had built on the palace roof above the upper room of Ahaz. The king destroyed the altars that Manasseh had built in the two courtyards of the Lord’s Temple. He smashed them to bits* and scattered the pieces in the Kidron Valley. 13 The king also desecrated the pagan shrines east of Jerusalem, to the south of the Mount of Corruption, where King Solomon of Israel had built shrines for Ashtoreth, the detestable goddess of the Sidonians; and for Chemosh, the detestable god of the Moabites; and for Molech,* the vile god of the Ammonites. 14 He smashed the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah poles. Then he desecrated these places by scattering human bones over them.

15 The king also tore down the altar at Bethel—the pagan shrine that Jeroboam son of Nebat had made when he caused Israel to sin. He burned down the shrine and ground it to dust, and he burned the Asherah pole. 16 Then Josiah turned around and noticed several tombs in the side of the hill. He ordered that the bones be brought out, and he burned them on the altar at Bethel to desecrate it. (This happened just as the Lord had promised through the man of God when Jeroboam stood beside the altar at the festival.)

Then Josiah turned and looked up at the tomb of the man of God* who had predicted these things. 17 “What is that monument over there?” Josiah asked.

And the people of the town told him, “It is the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and predicted the very things that you have just done to the altar at Bethel!”

18 Josiah replied, “Leave it alone. Don’t disturb his bones.” So they did not burn his bones or those of the old prophet from Samaria.

19 Then Josiah demolished all the buildings at the pagan shrines in the towns of Samaria, just as he had done at Bethel. They had been built by the various kings of Israel and had made the Lord* very angry. 20 He executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem.

[Hannah]

Interesting anonymous comment I've just found....

Hopefully science and bible scholars can at some point work together. I too wondered about the Thera eruption preceeding the move to egypt and not exodus. The famine that forced them to move to egypt maybe the one that followed Thera and the idea of a depopulated Goshen from a tidal wave being available for a Pharoah to give to "settlers" parallels what the native american chiefs did in New England when the pilgrims arrived {Influenza had wiped out indian populations prior to their arrival at Plymouth}. Thera was such a big event (changed weather patterns for 5 yr.s (tree ring patterns in Turkey) blocked out most of the sun light for a year) that if for some reason it was not recorded in Eqyptian history it certainly would have left ash in tombs under construction at the time so placing the exact time with the very accurate egyptian chronology would not be difficult if someone would only do it (i.e. look for the ash particles). Thera is not the tower of smoke and flame of exodus as it's geography is wrong in addition to the wide timing problem. However there is a line of a dozen volcano's from Northern Israel to Turkey that align exactly with the path of exodus.If someone would do a PHD thesis on at least placing Thera's eruption in the Egyptian time table it would sure be a service to our understanding. Once that is done dendrology of tree rings from wood from coffins and other grave goods would give us a good idea of the environmental impact. The problems posed are far from insurmountable.

---

[Hannah]

I think I've partly worked it out....

Deuternomy 33:2 He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.

(Several volcanic mountains. 'The Lord' being volcanic lava/fire. 'Dawned' meaning 'started'. 'Shon' meaning 'erupted from'. 'Myriads of holy ones' meaning lots of lava vents or small eruptions.)

These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (Deuteronomy 1:1

................

My belief is that they arrived at the most Northerly part of the Gulf of Aqaba (via the Sinai Penisular or Saudi after somehow crossing the Aqaba) and made their way up the Arabah....a line of volcanic and seismic activity along the Great Rift Valley during a time of extreme natural phenomena due to tectonic plate movements. They walked towards one volcano, then saw another erupt so moved on....and so on until it took them to where they ended up. They didn't plan their route. That's just the direction they believed they were intended to go as 'The Lord' was their shepperd and guided them....in their heads only you understand! The supposed plan was just written into the books of Moses after the evet to make it look like Moses knew, due to divine intervention, where they were supposed to be going. In all probability, the probably got horribly lost, hence the reason for the forty years spent wandering the wilderness and why almost all of them died. All these things explained away when the books get written of course.....punishments from Yahweh....again!

This page, and subsequent ones, describe the area and also hint at the volcano issue in the Bible, although very coyly and with, I bet, an amendment to the date of recent activity....(a lot of people will not want the truth to come out)...

http://www.freefictionbooks.org/books/v/...l?start=54

This page explains why Mt Sinai was postioned incorrectly. Midian, as the NW of Saudi was known then, was uncharted territory so Mt Sinai was positioned as just 'somewhere over there'.

http://www.wadiarabahproject.man.ac.uk/t...ntmaps.htm

I wonder if Saudi's ban on tourists has something to do with this.


Deuteronomy 8:15. Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;

(He bloody well led them into Saudi as well so he's got a cheek bragging about getting them out!)

This describes the entire Rift Valley...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rift_Valley

It talks about how a tectonic plate shift lifted up the area, resulting in the landlocked Dead Sea. Maybe movement cause a temporary lift of the water in the Gulf of Aqaba, resulting in the exposure of natural underwater 'bridges'. This theory would explain the existence of Egyptian army wheels in the Aqaba about halfway down....where the is a shallow crossing. A tsunami would have resulted from a lift of the plate.

[LastPoet]

Bah, is it just me or this sounds alot like preaching?

[Napoléon]

Bah, is it just me or this sounds alot like preaching?

Your theory makes sense. Here, have a pat on the back.

[The Grand Nudger]

::Shakes head:: Nope, nope, can't have it, go dig a hole in the ground until you have evidence. It's important that those of us offering actual explanations for what we see in the world around us not engage in the same sort of asshatery that the "other side" so often does. Some of us take history and religion very seriously, and you are shitting in our cereal.

[Minimalist]

Bah, is it just me or this sounds alot like preaching?

We've had xtians around here who spent less time spouting bible bullshit as if it were true.

Then Josiah turned and looked up at the tomb of the man of God* who had predicted these things

There is no archaeological or extra-biblical reference to any Judahite king named "Josiah." He is a bible creation. We have Assyrian refrences to Hezekiah and Mannesseh. We have Babylonian reference to Jehoiachin but this hot shot between them? Not a word from anyone.

Normal people would be suspicious of that. I imagine you will take it in stride and decide that fucking Josiah was a volcano, too.