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Old Wine in New Bottles
#1
Old Wine in New Bottles
Out with the Old . . .

Once upon a time, when it came to accepted knowledge, the Church ruled with an iron fist. What the Church proclaimed true was true, and that was that. Believe it or burn, now and forever.

But as the Renaissance picked up steam, science started elbowing its way to the table, which pissed off the Church no end. Refusing to “look into the telescope,” yet recognizing a turf grab when it saw one, the Church smacked back with abandon, savagely punishing the impertinent soul who sided with science, regardless of what the Church proclaimed.

After bitter battle, the periodic tables were overturned; right was might, and science, on the mighty wings of the scientific method, escaped the clutches of religious orthodoxy. The Age of Enlightenment was upon us. In a historical trice, religion was on the ropes, and into the breach leapt atheism. In time, the turf grab became the turf grabbed and held with the same tight grip favored by its predecessor. Evolution.

Down went the myths and down went the dogma, neither being able to stand up to empirical scrutiny. The Big Daddy Ghost in the Sky was busted, fossilized by the testimony of the rocks, pestle-whipped into a Spaghetti-Monster mash in the mortar of Darwinian natural selection. Going, going, gone.

Gone was the Creator, left was the creation. Gone was the Divine Intelligence that put the play in spin, left was the spinning play.
From the point of view of the atheists, that was that. It was a banner day, and the banner unfurled said: Mission Accomplished.

Well, yes and no.

. . . in with the New Old

Mythic belief may have been laid bare, but the worldview from which it emerged hadn't budged one bit. Having held sway over ages, a few facts were hardly enough to dislodge it, resurrection being a house special.

So while the believers kept right on believering, atheism dropped the beliefs but held tightly to the well-worn, highly effective mythic structure, adapting it to the new world ordered by the evidence. Finding new bottles for the old wine and setting out the “under new management” sign was all it took before business was booming like never before.

Out of the Mythic fire, rose the Enlightened phoenix. Science killed at the audition, of course, grabbing both One True Way and Great God billing; it was now both the Yellow Brick Road and Oz. Pay full attention to that man behind the curtain, for he is not only the measure of all things, but the measurer of all things as well.

A Bright new day was dawning, the dark night of the sole authority of the Church over at long last. Given the heady mix of liberation and raw power, excess is perfectly understandable. Goes to the head, it does. And did it ever. But it didn't go alone, as it had some age-old company along for the ride, and soon the Same Old Song was being sung in a remixed version:

We know what's really Real. We know the One True Way, and unless you are on our team, you are an infidel. Why? Because we say so and we are rocking and ruling the world. Empirical is awfully close to empire, and our way is the highway, because we built it. Now, all roads lead to us. Deal with it.

When in Rome and all that. So Mythic went Industrial Strength, snuck in under the covers with Science, and soon a new age was born; a new faith for a new day. The us vs. them dynamic, the demonization of the Other, Mythic's signature move, was quietly appropriated for use against any who might challenge the new authority.

Same as it ever was.
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#2
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
Fred, I mean no disrespect...

What are you talking about? First of all, science didn't elbow it's way to the table, science is the elbow and the table. I am not aware of any mythic structures in atheism, and I found it hard to understand this thread. Is it meant to be some kind of poetic prose, or are you wanting a discussion?

If it's discussion you want, please clarify, for me at least, what it is that you wish to discuss.
42

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#3
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
Quite. Adding imagery to your point doesn't make it any more true. If it's some awkward attempt to compare science to religion, that's simply and provably untrue. Try again.
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#4
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
Fred is nearly certain that science is a religion, and that there's really no evidence for it when you get to the bottom. Devil Fred, before you became interested in eastern mysticism, were you religious?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#5
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
What did I just read? A bad poem or what?
The biggest problem of the human race is that they cannot accept that there is nothing after death.
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#6
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
(September 6, 2011 at 3:32 am)aleialoura Wrote: Fred, I mean no disrespect...


No worries. Others will pick up that slack if necessary.

Quote:What are you talking about?

Heh. It does seem to be eluding folks, that's for sure. Regardless, thanks for asking instead of assuming, like poor Rhythm does down below. Wouldn't be so bad if he had a clue, but he missed it by a few zip codes.

Let's see if we can clear it up, though it's going to take some dropping of cherished preconceptions. Lord knows how we all hate that, huh?

Quote:First of all, science didn't elbow it's way to the table, science is the elbow and the table.

Uh, this is covered in the Same Old Song portion of my post. Like I said, Science got duel billing as The One True Way and Great God billing. Thanks for backing that point up for me right here.

Quote:I am not aware of any mythic structures in atheism, and I found it hard to understand this thread.

Well, this is the crux of the matter. You aren't aware of it, but you are soaking in it.

Quote:Is it meant to be some kind of poetic prose, or are you wanting a discussion? If it's discussion you want, please clarify, for me at least, what it is that you wish to discuss.

I would love to discuss it. If you can't follow the other text, let me boil it down in short strokes along the way.

First off, this is not in any way a kick against science. I absolutely adore science and think it is a tool of incalculable benefits. I'm 100% behind it.

Atheism and materialism, however, are a different story, and many cannot see that they are a different story. They may have taken science as their Lord, but that's not the same thing.

As we proceed, if we do so, atheism here and in all my posts refers to materialistic atheism, the strong or gnostic version. I'm not interested in quibbling about other varieties, and I'm sure there's ample opportunity to do so elsewhere.

So jump on in, ask as many question as you like, and it's all good.
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#7
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
I'll start. Do you have any evidence for the immaterial?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#8
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
Yo, ED, I didn't get to your last post yet, but the main line in it was this: “There has never, ever been any credible evidence to suggest that any further consciousness or life exists outside of this.”

That's going to be at the heart of all of this, and I was going to start another thread on that anyway.

Since I'm neither interested nor qualified to discuss the technical aspects of when dead is really dead, hence the NDE stuff and all that, I'm going to beg off that portion and stick with the main shot I put here. Fair?

(September 6, 2011 at 3:36 am)ElDinero Wrote: Quite. Adding imagery to your point doesn't make it any more true. If it's some awkward attempt to compare science to religion, that's simply and provably untrue. Try again.

Looks like I'm going to have to, as our small sample so far has shown that the point has whizzed by. No, this isn't some awkward attempt to compare science and religion. I'm actually horrified that anyone would come to that conclusion since nothing in there remotely suggests it.

If you strip the imagery, there's a lot in there, and I'm happy to discuss any and all of it, but the point has nothing to do with science. It's about atheism and worldviews. I would suggest reading it again or asking specific questions about specific parts.
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#9
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
How about you strip the imagery then, try bullet point style. So we all know what we're discussing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#10
RE: Old Wine in New Bottles
(September 6, 2011 at 9:19 am)Rhythm Wrote: Fred is nearly certain that science is a religion, and that there's really no evidence for it when you get to the bottom.

Uh, no. Fred doesn't in the remotest think that science is a religion, nor does he believe the bit about evidence. You screwed to pooch on both counts right off the bat and nothing in the text or in anything else I've posted remotely indicates either of these idiotic interpretations.

Rhythm, after a few rounds with you, it's clear you have no problem aggressively missing the point and adding your own as a substitute. Fine. Go do it somewhere else. You are too smart to be this stupid unless you are actively seeking to obscure.

The bit about being unaware of Dawkins was the tipping point that convinced me you were either uninterested or incapable of playing a straight game. For an atheist to say that he is unaware of the main hitter in your lineup is akin to a catholic saying he is unaware of the pope. It's either a bald-faced lie or displays a level of ignorance of the social context the issue rests within that is beyond my ability to suffer. Good luck with that either way, dude, but if you think I'm going to be your new gameball to kick around to impress your crewe, I doubt you will find the experience to be as satisfying as you assumed it would be.

If you want to discuss this honestly, I'm happy to engage. If not, go back to kicking fundies or whatever gets you off.


Quote:Fred, before you became interested in eastern mysticism, were you religious?

No.
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