Hello.....I have a little problem

[thesummerqueen]

[Happy Gardener bounces into thread]

Hi Shell! I fucking LOVE the sig Cinjin made for you. I am not opposed to worshiping him as the god of graphic design.

Have we heard back from the OP about what exactly he meant? All this Statler stuff is harshing the natural mellow I got while skipping about in the woods collecting samples during class.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Oh boy. We've got evangelical atheism, child-rearing, and human rights all in one thread?

[makes martini, sits back, crosses legs and prepares to enjoy the cat fight]

Gee,this is a first for me,I hardly know to say.

Ah,yes I do: I really don't care about what to me are rather extreme views., AS LONG AS the person is not engaging in such wankery 'as an atheist'


There is no such thing as an atheist position on anything other than the existence of god.

I am not anti religion per se. "As a skeptic and secularist" I find that kind of intolerant and aggressive behaviour from a person who is also an atheist, every bit as obnoxious the same kind of behaviour coming from a person who is also a believer

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If atheism is not a religion then why would you care what anyone else believes? Why "take the message" (gospel) to anyone? Why call people who disagree with you "enemies"?

This guy's position has nothing to do with atheism and every thing to do with his own world view and prejudices,of which atheism has neither,being ONLY about a disbelief in gods,period.

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Because your folks have a history of systematic oppression and murder (along with a laundry list of other nasty shit).

Umm I think what you say is true enough,but as an argument,it's tu quoque.--I can't use your crimes/prejudices to excuse or justify mine.

People who disagree with me disagree with me, people who disagree with reality are delusional, and in light of that history I mentioned above, dangerous.

Sorry to be a noodge, but exactly who gets to define 'reality"? You? Me?

[Rev. Rye]

There is no atheistic worldview . . . again. Please rewrite your response to reflect the fact that you know fuckall about atheism or responding will be a waste of my time because it will consist solely of, "Not a worldview. Again, not a worldview. Christianity does not have a monopoly on morality. Not a worldview."

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Oh, yeah, Bible contradiction, God loves the world, blah, blah. God murders a shit ton of people because they pissed him off. I win.

Naturalism is an atheistic worldview. So you are wrong.

Naturalism is one atheistic worldview. This doesn't mean that atheism itself is a worldview any more than Christianity being a worldview makes theism one. Atheism is a characteristic of several worldviews, but it is not a worldview in and of itself.

[Minimalist]

Still being willfully obtuse?

I don't think he can control it, Shel. Comes from spending too much time either reading that fucking bible of his or having his head shoved up his ass.

Or both.

[Erinome]

Have you ever been pregnant? Obviously not.

Nope, I am a guy. That’s irrelevant though, I am still allowed to address the issue.

If abortions were outlawed by society, do you honestly think that abortions would no longer occur?

What kind of logic is this? That’s like saying we shouldn’t keep murder illegal because murders still occur.

They would! It would be just another black market. It's main customers would most likely be young girls whose parents would have a conniption fit if they knew their lily white daughter had sinned in such a way.

This is just an appeal to emotion, it has no bearing on whether abortion should be legal or not. There is a black market for child sex trafficking today; that however does not mean I think we should therefore legalize it, apparently you would think that given your lines of reasoning here.

All that abstinence talk didn't work?! Shocking. They'd go and get abortions on someone's kitchen table with a coat hanger and the towel that was just used for drying dishes, and either die there, or months later from an excruciating infection, but hey, they deserve it right! Fucking baby killers.

More pure emotionalism. Nobody forces the girls to have abortions, if you can’t accept the possible consequences of sex, don’t have sex.

Why is it wrong for me to base my concepts of morality on dead comedians, but okay and super duper for you to base yours on dead men from the dark ages and men that may or may not have even existed?

I don’t base mine on any men from the dark ages thank you.

Embryos are NOT babies.

Sounds like just your opinion to me, can you logically prove this?

They're extremely valuable and freezable goo. If your morals stand in the way of something so scientifically valuable to the living members of the human race, then your ignorance is beyond measure.

The Nazis thought the same thing about Jews; they were sub-human beings who presented a great scientific value to the advancement of the human race. It’s a shame to see such viewpoints are still held today.

1.) The logic is that by keeping it legal and regulated, it can be done by knowledgeable doctors in a sterile environment, thereby reducing the rate of mortality for the mothers while making infections considerably less frequent, all while not contributing to the rising rate of health care. There is a form of legal murder. It's called the death penalty. That's a different subject, but you brought it up. I'm actually not against it, just sayin'...

2.) Parents who shove Jesus/Allah down the throats of their children can be very judgmental. Instead of facing the shame of confronting their parents, many girls opt for abortion. It's easy to see why:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=21841

http://pregnancy.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Pre...ir_Parents

Just a couple of examples.

3.) Because of awesome religious morals, many girls are not informed on how to have safe sex. These same religious morals do not, however, keep teens from doing it. It's a natural thing, it's going to happen. It's, once again, religion that's perverted it's acceptability. If someone's god gave a fuck about waiting until marriage, girls would magically have their first menstruation on their wedding night. L O G I C.

4.) Embryos are not babies because you can't freeze babies. I thought we went through this? Embryos are a collection of cells that without a human host, and the right conditions, will be nothing more than a collection of cells. Unless they find a way to grow babies in a petri dish, they will remain a collection of cells. You can purchase them all day long. Is it legal to purchase babies? Kinda. Christians do it all the time. Must be right!

5.) You just compared Nazi insanity to stem cell research. I'm done with ya!

Hope that was a sufficient response.

[Minimalist]

Excellent work, Alei. You figured out that Waldork was a dick in no time at all.

[The Grand Nudger]

As far as appealing to hypocrisy, that's a valid criticism. I would never claim the moral high ground, and I think I've made comments before about being the first guy to pick up a sword. What can I say, I'm a human being. That's me, I own it. Do I believe that god commanded those who flew his banner to do the things that they did? No, I do not. I do however point out that those who believe that there is such a thing as a cosmic mandate to this or that, or that any group of people is superior by cosmic decree are at the very least enabling such events. I also stress that even if there were such a thing, a decent human being wouldn't comply with the commands in the first place. In my experience when someone says that god disapproves of you, what they mean is that they disapprove of you. It is not only possible that these people would slit your throat given the chance, but highly likely. That some people do these terrible things out of faith is not because the text is ambiguous. They did not misinterpret. There are very clear justifications to murder within the bible (for example). So I, personally, will not sit there quietly while people brush off large portions of those human beings alive (or those that have died) as deserving this or that based upon some unsubstantiated rumor that a supposed god said it was okay. I also don't feel that allowing people to engage in such sadistic fantasies unopposed and uncriticized is a very good idea if we want to spend another couple hundred thousand years on this rock. We've seen what theocracies put forward as justice and morality both in the past and the present. Those that wish for the end of the world will someday grow tired of waiting.

One of my favorite definitions of reality is "the state of things as they actually exist" which is independent of my own desires (and in many cases contradictory to them). It is precisely because I understand human experience and knowledge to be fallible that I refer to what can be substantiated as "reality". Am I willing to bend and postulate, absolutely. Am I willing to bend to those who would state their opinions as facts, and then use those "facts" to control others? No.

At any point I'm about two hairs away from declaring absolute fucking war on the people that would rather see this world burn than admit they were wrong about their little heavenly psychodramas.

[Jackalope]

I always operate under the hope that if I give him cause to repeat himself over and over, at some point something will click, and he'll be mid response on the other end thinking "wait, wtf am I saying?".

You have far more patience than I, sir. Keep up the good work.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Nope, I am a guy. That’s irrelevant though, I am still allowed to address the issue.

No,it's not irrelevant: Pregnancy termination is a female health issue,between her and her doctor,and NOBODY ELSE,period.

OF COURSE you are entitled to a different opinion/values/world view. No problem,until you try to impose your values,world view/opinion on me and the rest of society,then we have a problem.

It has been observed by both women and some men,that if men had babies there would be an abortion clinic at every supermarket and convenience store.

[The Grand Nudger]

Theres a great example of reality vs opinion right there Pad.

I'm not personally a supporter of "elective" abortions, that's my opinion.

I am not and cannot become pregnant, that's the reality of the situation.

My opinion is decidedly that of the pro life camp (for entirely different reasons in most cases) up to the brink of the law, at which point I have to defer to the pro-choice side of the debate. Women are, in reality, the ones who carry these children and ultimately the ones who make this decision. People who invent some reality of their own where there is some equality in this, or where a man has a claim of ownership to an unborn child, or in the extreme example, that some god has a claim of ownership, are twats.

Would I consider it a terrible choice, sure. Is it my choice to make, no.