'Seeking' God

[The Grand Nudger]

Mostly isn't even the word, everytime some asshat theist came in all hot with righteous indignation I would have put her on my goddamn shoulders and sang her praises.

[Mister Agenda]

Christianity was the only place where I was told that God loved me, cherished me, gave up his life for me, made a path for me, will guide me, will change me, will never leave me and even if I commit inexcuseable evil he'll forgive me, and I don't deserve any of this, which is why it's so amazing, because I know I don't deserve it. You can call someone's thoughts delusional, but until you've set foot in their shoes, until you understand what they have been saved from your point will never be made. You simply cannot convince someone who has experienced the transforming power of Christ to stop living for him, but you can easily derail someone religious.

This is nice, up to a point, and I can certainly understand those kinds of feelings. Are you a Universalist or a believer that the souls of those who aren't going to heaven are extinguished? Because if you're not, it's very likely you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you on theological matters is destined for and deserves eternal, writhing torment in unimaginable pain. And that's not so nice.

[Ace Otana]

I'll be gentle, I promise.

one has to be true, but which is it?

Want to correct you here. Only one could be right, but they can all be wrong.

If we decide there is no higher moral code or way than our own then we actually decide to worship ourselves

Not worship. It shows independence and intelligence. Morality can so easily come from intelligence.

, even though we can't stop ourselves from dying, getting sick or becoming victims of crimes. So what do we do?

Do what we can with the available science and technology. Faith and prayer does nothing. So we are left with only one effective method.

I guess we have to decide if we need God.

How can we rely on god if he does not exist?

Yes, we have to use our feelings.

Feelings cannot tell reality from fantasy. Often they cloud your judgement.

Some people, like you Ace, are very satisfied with the life they have and may not feel guilt for the past or relive their pain,

I have no guilt or pain. If there was any, I'd try to undo or make up for it somehow, independently.

some people have their own methods to stay positive and do things as they like to do them, using their common sense to make decisions that will create a better life for them while they're here and viewing the world as it is, full of life and rebirth, seeing nothing more.

Seeing the world as it is. No spirits, no crazy imagination, just the natural world that's painfully obvious to the human eye.

But not everyone sees the world like this, some of us want to know that there is justice for people who have died in pain or on a whim, like myself.

'Want'? Reality won't rearrange itself for you. If there is no afterlife then there is no afterlife. Only our perception of reality changes not reality itself.

We want to know that the millions of people who perished in turbulent weather, turbulent times, in misery, in hunger, in shock, in sadness, that they will have their time of reckoning and they will be in a better place.

Want is one thing. What is, is quite another. I want cancer to go away and never return. That no one ever suffers from it again. Many others want the same thing, but this won't affect reality.

Some of us want to know there is a way to stop the anger or hatred we have, to control the fear or the envy, to stop us from hurting ourselves and others with the circle of slefish decisions we tend to make. Some people need God because they know that in their own hands their lives are wasted, but in God's hands their lives flourish and they will be renewed.

Like a child who has grown up and realised that the big wide world is cold, hard and lonely. I suspect you like many others are looking for a parent figure. We are always looking up to others more capable than ourselves. There for, it's understandable that people will invent a 'god' to look out for them so they feel comforted and safe. A blanket to hide from reality.
People don't waste their lives without belief in god. I'm fine, so are countless others godless heathens.

Christianity was the only place where I was told that God loved me, cherished me, gave up his life for me, made a path for me, will guide me, will change me, will never leave me and even if I commit inexcuseable evil he'll forgive me, and I don't deserve any of this, which is why it's so amazing, because I know I don't deserve it.

You're living in a fantasy world. It's all a delusion. You perceive a world where everything is taken care of, you have a big daddy looking out for you and that you and your loved ones will continue to exist in a better place. It is all too good to be true. Reality isn't like that, or even close to that. It's hard and tough. That's why we have religions. People fear a hard and tough reality. It's not all bad, it has it's many wonders and beauty.

Also one other thing, how can god die and still exist? He can't really give anything up really. He's all powerful, no limitations.

You can call someone's thoughts delusional, but until you've set foot in their shoes, until you understand what they have been saved from your point will never be made.

And as long as you hold tightly to your blanky, you'll never see the real world. To see reality for what it is. No dreams come true, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Reality.

You simply cannot convince someone who has experienced the transforming power of Christ to stop living for him, but you can easily derail someone religious.

Many atheists were once strong believers. Devout, head deep in it and still managed to discard the illusion. It is one big illusion. We are pattern seeking primates, we are hard wired to look for patterns and purpose that aren't there. We also naturally tend to ignore unpleasant thoughts instead of facing them.
We can and have many times pulled apart religious nonsense. Making it ever more obvious that it's an illusion. A lie to comfort the uneasy and the fool, by keeping them from seeing reality.

I believe that the only forces allowed to influence people on Earth are God and Lucifer (and his followers). God has made the choice cut and dry, either you're with him or you're against him.

Before you can claim that a god done anything you must first demonstrate that a god exists. A does not prove B without first proving A.

500 million life capable planets. 200 billion galaxies. Yet you'll ignore that because of your perception of reality. Your presupposition. That is closed minded.

[lucent]

1. How can I believe in something that I don't believe in, just in order to find it? And if I already believe in it, what is the point of the search in the first place?
2. How should I search for God?
3. How long will it take?
4. How will I know when I have found him?

Over to you.

1. How can I believe in something that I don't believe in, just in order to find it? And if I already believe in it, what is the point of the search in the first place?

A. Acknowledge the possibility that you could be wrong.

B. Allow for the possibility that Jesus was a historical person. This is something almost all scholars acknowledge as true. Even Richard Dawkins admits He was a real person.

This leaves two possibilities. Either his claims were untrue and he is dead and buried. Or, His claims are true, He is alive, and will hear your prayers. Which leads to:

C. Allow for the possibility that His claims might be true

You don't have to believe this 100 percent, but just allow for the possibility. Then you can meaningfully seek Him out.

2. How should I search for God?

Ideally, through prayer, reading the bible, and attending church. If you are unwilling to do all of those things, at the least through prayer. This is what I recommend:

"Jesus, if you're real, please let me know. If you're God, please reveal it to me. Please lead me to the truth"

3. How long will it take?

Right away or some time, it depends on how God will lead you.

4. How will I know when I have found him?

He'll let you know, and you won't have any doubt it was from God.

[Shell B]

I'm surprised that I have to mention this to you Salty. If a person goes looking for something, specifically, there's a massive chance that they'll find it whether it actually exists or not.

Ah, yes, the self-fulfilling prophesy.

[JohnDG]

Napoleon Bonaparte once said, "Religion is the only thing that keeps the poor, from murdering the rich".

[Ace Otana]

Still don't see why I should seek something I don't believe exists. Also to presuppose god's existence for me, would mean abandoning every tried and tested scientific principle that I stand by.

Quite simply, not acceptable!
Your god, you prove it.

[ElDinero]

Believers tell atheists to seek God because we're hoping that you will find him, but really, when I began defending this argument I suddenly saw how insulting it must be for someone to say, "seek God" like you never once tried it. Which is why I rephrased my own advice by saying "with the intention to follow" but if you never have the intention to follow, the intention to defend, then the whole thing should be ignored, the search is pointless.

Since you have already made it clear that you have no intention of seeking or following God, then I retract my statement "seek god with the intention to follow and you will find him." It was a weak attempt to encourage you, but you are already firm in your beliefs.

I don't think you need any clarification about the homosexuality thread.

I have already explained the process for belief and how to change belief. I don't know what else I can say to help you. I believe you're fully capable of understanding me.

The part I didn't understand was you saying I could control my beliefs, or some such. I'm not really sure what you're suggesting.

However, on the whole, I'm fairly satisfied with your answer. What I'd like to clarify is that having acknowledged that the passage is insulting and not applicable to almost all atheists for reasons you yourself have explained above, that you'll no longer be quoting it at people. And that if it ever comes up among fellow Christians, that you're going to educate them on how much of a fallacy it is, and why it is so thoroughly unconvincing, so that some way down the line, some atheist will be spared from being patronised with it.

I'm not satisfied with your later claim in this thread that 'one of the religions MUST be right, but which?' since that is quite an absurd notion. I submit that as you say, they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong, which seems to me the most likely option.

---

A. Acknowledge the possibility that you could be wrong.

B. Allow for the possibility that Jesus was a historical person. This is something almost all scholars acknowledge as true. Even Richard Dawkins admits He was a real person.

This leaves two possibilities. Either his claims were untrue and he is dead and buried. Or, His claims are true, He is alive, and will hear your prayers. Which leads to:

C. Allow for the possibility that His claims might be true

You don't have to believe this 100 percent, but just allow for the possibility. Then you can meaningfully seek Him out.

Ideally, through prayer, reading the bible, and attending church. If you are unwilling to do all of those things, at the least through prayer. This is what I recommend:

"Jesus, if you're real, please let me know. If you're God, please reveal it to me. Please lead me to the truth"

Right away or some time, it depends on how God will lead you.

He'll let you know, and you won't have any doubt it was from God.

You really can't see what a laughable answer that is? Your brain has been severely addled, sir.

Firstly, it did not address the most important thing, that being how I can go about forcing myself to believe in something. I always allow for the possibility that I COULD be wrong, however on the weight of the evidence presented so far, I feel confident that I am quite right on this issue. How does acknowledging that Jesus was a real person have any bearing on making myself believe in God? Did you even read my questions, or just peddle out the first thing that came to mind? One more time: How can I force myself to believe in something that I don't believe in, and if I have managed to do that, what's the point in the search, since I already believe?

I won't be trying prayer, because it doesn't work. I am reading the Bible for research purposes. I won't be going to church because it's a waste of time. This really gets at the crux of the matter, lucent, and it's worth reading this twice if it helps it to sink in. You should stop quoting the verse at people, because in asking folks to seek God, you're asking them to do things that they cannot (force themselves to believe) and/or have no inclination to (go to church etc) do. How stupid is your God that he would only reveal himself to people willing and able to doublethink in this way, and go out of their way to do things they don't wish to do, in a 'search' that could last a day or a lifetime and is only ended by some unspecified event, that really is just the first thing that the long suffering seeker cares to ascribe to God (probably for the sole purpose of ending their fucking search!)? That's your God's fault, not mine.

The last two things I have already addressed in my responses to salty. No information whatsoever. 'Oh, it'll happen at some point, and you'll just know'. Like I said, it's a way for you to tell those who don't 'find' God that they need to search longer, or harder.

Answer me this: At what point would you acknowledge that a search has failed? Indeed, is there EVER a time when you say 'no, this clearly hasn't worked for you'. And if so, is it ever God's fault, or always the fault of the seeker? I sense I already know the answers to these questions, but humour me.

[Welsh cake]

"Jesus, if you're real, please let me know. If you're God, please reveal it to me. Please lead me to the truth"

I thought you Christians believe you're not supposed to put sky-daddy to the test.

Were a deity or god-like being discovered somewhere out in the cosmos it would have no real impact or influence on my finite existence. Life goes on, just as it did the mundane day before it were discovered. And I can't fathom why anyone would want anything to do with the Biblical God were he real. I wouldn't wish an untimely encounter with that vile contemptuous being on anyone, no matter how much I may detest them.

[downbeatplumb]

"Jesus, if you're real, please let me know. If you're God, please reveal it to me. Please lead me to the truth"

or you could substitute jesus with mohammed, buddha, l ron hubard or any one of a hundred other phonies and it would still be just as valid a quest i.e. a complete waste of time and effort.