Christian Looking For Debate

[The Grand Nudger]

The evil and calamity discussion has been had. It doesn't matter which way you translate it. God is a triggerman by either translation. You're willing to excuse him already, obviously, so I understand that you don't feel this way. But if you're going to go engaging in the hypothetical the only reason to ignore this is because of it's inconvenience. Credit for the good, shirk the bad. Sounds like god is trying to scapegoat his creations at this point.

A god, all things considered, could be responsible for both, and unbeholden to us and still be a god. "The problem of evil" is one created by some (and certainly not all, see our resident might is right crowd) christian's theology. Unless you can give me any reason to even begin to suspect that this theology is correct in any way, why would I regard this problem as anything but a manufactured one?

[Blam!]

2 Kings 6:33
Behold, this evil is of the Lord.

Isaiah 45:7
I ... create evil.

Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Amos 3:6
Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Now is it safe to say that all of those verses aren't talking about "evil"? These three verses are translated in many different ways and only a few translations use the word "evil". These three verses use the Hebrew word רַע pronounced "rah" which can be translated as "disaster" and "calamity" which is different than moral evil. Additionally, In context all of these verses are indeed talking about God being involved in natural disasters and calamities rather than talking about God committing moral evils?

We get this so-called sin from "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" as known as "Tree of Conscience"

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." -Gen 2:9

I don't want to copy-and-paste large amount of verses here so, I'll just post the references. "God-is-creator-of-everything" verses:
Psalm 104:24, 30, Psalm 24:1‑2, Hebrews 11:3, Isaiah 44:24.

According to Genesis 1: 11 ‑ 12, this verse stated god created tree - if you consider Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil one of these "tree" creations.

So here's the question: if God, indeed, is creator of all creations in the existence then, Where do you think this "evil" come from? One of his creations, perhaps?

[SeekerOfTruth]

Firstly, I'm glad you are sticking around. I was worried you were going, and I think you could learn a lot here.

Now, looks like you've had a bit of a rough time, and I hope you're through it. However, with that said, the fact that you found solace and comfort in your beliefs doesn't take a single step towards whether it is true or not. As I said before, do you care if the things you believe are true, or do you not? It's very important to establish this.

As for what you've got to lose, you're touching on a thing called Pascal's Wager. It's worth looking up but basically it runs that if you believe in God and you're right, you reap all the benefits (heaven etc). If you believe and you're wrong, nothing happens. But if you don't believe and you're wrong, you face the consequences (hell, perhaps). So why not believe?

There's a few problems with it, but the main one is that if you choose to follow that line of thinking, you're going to have to believe in every God that has ever been mentioned. After all, what if Allah is the one true God and you've been worshipping the Christian God the whole time?

I think I could come up with several other things in answer to the question of 'what have I got to lose?' as well, if you're interested, but I'll leave it there for now.

First, yes I am through all of the rough times thanks for caring. And yes I do care if its true or not. And for Pascal's Wager that's a really good point that I have a responses myself.

I've studied a lot of different religions and at least the basics of almost all of them. And I'm convinced, no matter how much my fellow Christians would disagree, That Jews, Christians, and Muslims all follow the same God. Even the Qur'an touches on this idea: "And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it" (3:187 AYA) The "people of the book" mentioned in this verse are the Jews and Christians whom the Qur'an commands are to be respected for they honor the same God. In a way by being Christian if Judaism or Islam are true rather than Christianity I'm still covered. However, that still leaves out what if Hinduism or the Norse Mythology is right.

As for the last comment. Yes, I am very interested in the other answers to "what have I got to lose?"

God is a triggerman by either translation.

This is true. In the "calamity" translation God is still the one who created it. However this brings to question: Is creating the calamity a moral evil?

Well to this I would ask: Is slapping your child's hand when they touch something they aren't supposed to? Sure it's a calamity to slap your child's hand, but it's not a moral evil because its discipline. In those verses the calamities happened because people were doing stuff they weren't supposed to, in this sense God is slapping their hands.

We get this so-called sin from "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" as known as "Tree of Conscience"

"And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." -Gen 2:9

I don't want to copy-and-paste large amount of verses here so, I'll just post the references. "God-is-creator-of-everything" verses:
Psalm 104:24, 30, Psalm 24:1‑2, Hebrews 11:3, Isaiah 44:24.

According to Genesis 1: 11 ‑ 12, this verse stated god created tree - if you consider Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil one of these "tree" creations.

So here's the question: if God, indeed, is creator of all creations in the existence then, Where do you think this "evil" come from? One of his creations, perhaps?

Yes, God being the creater did create everything in existence including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, as stated earlier, evil is not something you can create. Evil, in sense doesn't even exist it's simply a lack of good.

Take cold for example, it doesn't exist it's just how we describe an absence of heat or atomic movement. However, even though it's non existent, we still have knowledge of it, just like evil.

[downbeatplumb]

Evil, in sense doesn't even exist it's simply a lack of good.

How is this different from saying 'good doesnt exist its just a lack of evil'

They are both relatively abstract concepts liable to change over time.

It was once considered 'good' to kill women suspected of witchcraft for example and if you go to glastonbury the place is full of people thinking they are witches and they are mosttly quite nice, deluded but quite nice.

[ElDinero]

First, yes I am through all of the rough times thanks for caring. And yes I do care if its true or not. And for Pascal's Wager that's a really good point that I have a responses myself.

I've studied a lot of different religions and at least the basics of almost all of them. And I'm convinced, no matter how much my fellow Christians would disagree, That Jews, Christians, and Muslims all follow the same God. Even the Qur'an touches on this idea: "And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it" (3:187 AYA) The "people of the book" mentioned in this verse are the Jews and Christians whom the Qur'an commands are to be respected for they honor the same God. In a way by being Christian if Judaism or Islam are true rather than Christianity I'm still covered. However, that still leaves out what if Hinduism or the Norse Mythology is right.

As for the last comment. Yes, I am very interested in the other answers to "what have I got to lose?"

Ok, the fact that you care about your beliefs being true is good. Now yes, those three religions all come from one source and split off some way down the line from each other. So I'm happy enough that you could argue that all followers of those religions are working for the same God (though I can't think why you'd want to affiliate yourself with Islam in any way). But you've already highlighted the problem yourself. There are literally thousands of religions in the world, from Hinduism to Jainism to Cargo Cults to Scientology to Greek mythology. The religions are in no way compatible with each other, so you cannot believe them all. This is where Pascal's Wager falls down. How are you going to solve this problem?

So you said you care about your beliefs being true. So the first thing to realise is that being comforted by something does not make it true, in any way. Some children are comforted by a blanket or an old toy, but we can safely assume that the things do not themselves have any safeguarding properties. Adults take comfort in 'spirit mediums', astrology, homeopathy and the aforementioned thousands of worldwide religions, the power of which I hope you won't be arguing for. So the question is: What evidence is there to believe that Christianity provides an accurate representation of the world? Bearing in mind that the Bible contains many factual errors, as well as claims that have never been substantiated (flood, exodus etc). I don't know how literally you take the Bible, but it makes some fairly outlandish claims that there is simply no evidence for.

Finally, I was going to rattle off a list of things 'to lose' by being religious, but they all basically come under one banner to a large degree. Essentially, I believe when you follow a religion such as Christianity, you sacrifice your intellectual integrity and individuality. You aren't able to make up your own mind on issues of morality, because you are already instructed what to think. Even if you don't openly loathe homosexuals, for instance, you are conditioned to think certain things about them. That's just one among many examples. You're forced to struggle between where the evidence points and what your religion has taught you to be true. You end up either happily condemning people to eternal torment for what they believe, or its more benign form, worrying about the fate of people you care about and perhaps trying to encourage them to 'switch sides' to avoid damnation. You're encouraged to believe yourself part of a chosen tribe who carry favour with the creator of the universe, which can give people a false sense of entitlement.

I've really only just begun to scratch the surface, but that's enough to mull over for the time being.

[Joe Bloe]

Evil, in sense doesn't even exist it's simply a lack of good.

So if your mother gets taken by a serial killer, you'd say that was a good thing? Nothing evil has occurred. She just happened to be in place where there was less than the usual amount of good.

Her death was a good thing - not quite as good as she may have hoped perhaps, but still "good"?

And the killer wasn't evil, he was actually a good person - not quite as good as you and me, but still "good", definitely not evil.


All that, just to save yourself the bother of admitting that your omnibenevolent God does not exist !

[The Grand Nudger]

You've just described exactly how cold exists. As a word used to convey an idea about heat (or the lack thereof). Perhaps your god is simply a word used to convey an idea with nothing actually attached to that idea itself in reality. Would explain the lack of evidence wouldn't it.

So why choose slapping a hand as calamity rather than, oh, idk, a real calamity, such as a tsunami that results in massive loss of life? I agree that tsunamis aren't a moral evil...unless they have a triggerman.

Someone drowns -not a moral evil.
Someone is drowned -moral evil.

So, what are those drowned in a tsunami doing that they weren't supposed to be doing? To the last man, woman, child, and pig? How would they have known, have the rules been set down in a clear manner, and has there been any reason to accept those rules given (and their source) offered to those people? I haven't seen anything that even comes close. How do you know that people executed in such a manner (lets call it what it is right?) were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing? God wills it? Spare me. How about you offer a defense that doesn't excuse Pol Pot and whoever else ever had their hands on the trigger?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Hey Mehmet,are you and your family safe?

Yes, yes, we are safe.

[Blam!]

Yes, God being the creater did create everything in existence including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, as stated earlier, evil is not something you can create. Evil, in sense doesn't even exist it's simply a lack of good.

In the bible, god is supposedly omniscient yet he allowed it happened?

To clarify your statement above- Did Adam and Eve unjustly kicked out of the Eden Garden just because they eaten the forbidden fruit of nonexistence of "good and evil"?
Or are you trying to imply that the knowledge of Good and Evil/Conscience is nothing but a delusion?

Take cold for example, it doesn't exist it's just how we describe an absence of heat or atomic movement. However, even though it's non existent, we still have knowledge of it, just like evil.

Something that can't be seen/felt by our 5 senses [sight, smell, taste, touch and hearing, for example] don't mean it is nonexistence. I am sure you know most of scientific methods can't be analyze, observe, research and confirm the nonexistence. Besides, we have technology to detect energy, protons, electrons, neutrons, infrared rays, x-rays, gamma rays and anything that can't be detected by our 6 senses.

Think about it, if you are correct about absence of heat/cold, then thermodynamics wouldn't be existed in first place.

The concept about Good and Evil:
According to Social Darwinism, Good and Evil/Morals/Conscience/Ethics/whatever is defined, developed by humanity. I am not sure if Social Darwinism is credible theory. But nonetheless, humanity already have ability to make, redefine, improve our morals/ethics.

If you still think the concept of "evil" don't exist, Try to imagine and feel yourself in a guy this situation [as a 1st person perspective]:
This man strangle, dismantle and slaughter adorable, healthy kitten, brutal as possible. He even can felt warm blood of twitching kitten and its blood staining his hands all in the same time. Afterward, he threw dying kitten against a tree as if it's a bottle shattered against a tree. 'Tis cute kitten is left for dead by this man. Fin.

The bible didn't specify how you should treat the species known as Felis catus. So that's where you come in - How do you describe of this man's behavior with felis catus? Evil? Or lacking of good? Why should you emotionally responded to this man's behavior with animal that you defined the "evil" supposedly nonexistence?

Even if the concept of "evil" don't exist, we still reactive to this man's atrocity, emotionally, also provokes our conscience. You see, most of people [with belief in the existence of soul] still thinks emotions such as "Love" can't be scientifically explained because they believe "love" come from our souls, yet scientists discovered emotions are produced by brain and chemical reaction. It's same thing to ancestors believed Zeus/Thor's thunders are work of "god" later science explained vis-a'-vis.

I suppose that "Evil" is a merely word, but the importance is its conception that we define, redefine, to describe with basis of our conscience, logic and emotion which existed within us.

[Mister Agenda]

This is true. In the "calamity" translation God is still the one who created it. However this brings to question: Is creating the calamity a moral evil?

Well to this I would ask: Is slapping your child's hand when they touch something they aren't supposed to? Sure it's a calamity to slap your child's hand, but it's not a moral evil because its discipline. In those verses the calamities happened because people were doing stuff they weren't supposed to, in this sense God is slapping their hands.

If we felt a slapping sensation on our hand whenever we did certain things, most of us would get the message. Dumping lava and ash on a city leaves us at a bit of a loss in figuring out exactly who was getting their hand slapped, and what for. It's not discipline when you have to guess what you're being punished for, it's abuse.

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Evil, in sense doesn't even exist it's simply a lack of good.

How is this different from saying 'good doesnt exist its just a lack of evil'

They are both relatively abstract concepts liable to change over time.

It was once considered 'good' to kill women suspected of witchcraft for example and if you go to glastonbury the place is full of people thinking they are witches and they are mosttly quite nice, deluded but quite nice.

Actually, 'lack of evil' is a pretty good definition of 'good'. Good is not suffering, not being afflicted, not being agrieved, not being sad, not being mutilated, not being in pain, not being deprived...sounds pretty good to me. Isn't reducing evil the main way we promote good?