Hell - Where is the idea of justice?

[Voltair]

I am sure that this has been discussed before but I wanted to bring it up again. I have not seen a good response to the questions I have with this issue.

In the U.S. court system, and others, there is the idea of cruel and unusual punishment and making the punishment fit the crime. Hell is eternal torment in some form whether or not that torment is physical agony or some other agony caused by absence of God is besides the point.

The punishment of Hell is not rendered towards those who we may be more inclined to see it happen to such as mass murderers, serial rapists, etc. This punishment is levied out against anyone who is without Christ as far as I can tell from scripture save some mercy which may or may not be delivered.

How to acts committed in the temporary plane of existence warrant an eternity of punishment?
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Also if there is this level of eternal punishment why would God not reveal himself more directly?

The Bible already shows people with direct knowledge of God: Adam and Eve (probably metaphorical though), Israel, Moses, Apostles, Judas, and others.

All of these people still chose at various times to turn their back on God even though they could have certainty in his existence through what they saw. To make the argument that God could not directly reveal himself is not really a sustainable argument at least not in anyway that I have seen.

So if God can reveal himself and therefore help me and many others who have doubt from an intellectual standpoint why doesn't he? If eternity is on the line why is there not more out there?

[Violet]

Death is eternal... how can you warrant a death penalty for crimes committed in the temporary?

Prison for life is a death sentence as well, and far crueler than letting them die.

Anyone who wishes to cause premeditated suffering to another person irritates me. Premeditated extermination not so much... but torture on the side is unnecessary and brutal.

Who gives a fuck about a god who would do such a thing? I'd kill it myself if I believed in it.

[Voltair]

Well the idea of Hell did make me change one statement I had earlier... It's no longer it would be nice if I could believe it.

If I die and wake up facing some kind of deity my first question will be. "Are you Yahweh and was the Bible accurate in portraying who you are?". His answer will partially determine how far I get kicked down into Hell.

I ultimately am damned no matter what according to Christianity. If I did believe in it I would be trying to save people from a tyrant. I would hope they may be able to drink the kool aid because I would know I could never love God and for that he would probably send me to Hell.

I am not going to attack anyone who wants to offer what they believe is a just reason for God to do this. I am not looking for a fight. Even if you don't believe in it I would be interested if a good argument could be formed anyway.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The ascribed infinite qualities of the Abrahamic God are mutually exclusive. The problems of evil and suffering are also incompatible with such a god.


YHWH of the Torah is NOT just;starting with the garden of Eden, he shows himself to be petty,vindictive, cruel,sadistic and genocidal (read Exodus)

That makes perfect sense,as humans always make their gods in their own image,often with their very worst flaws. The people who became the Jews from about the seventh century bce were originally an illiterate tribe of bronze age goat herders.The god they stole from the Sumerians and the mythology of the Torah reflect the nature of their society.

Religion; Man's attempt to communicate with the weather (grafitto,London, circa 1985)

[Voltair]

Speaking of a brutal God... It seems a bit odd to me that an all powerful being doesn't understand how to get people to love him. The idea of God wanting us to choose him is a bit absurd considering the cosmic shotgun he is pointing to our heads when he says "Now you don't HAVE to love me"....

[The Grand Nudger]

The concept of hell and it's acceptance by the faithful are pretty much the main reason that I don't feel that there is any value in the biblical narrative, or the relative morality of those who offer it up. There are great places to make biblical narratives powerful positive metaphors and teaching devices, all shattered instantly by four letters. Unfortunate.

[reverendjeremiah]

The funny thing is this question:

Prove that the American "justice" system is based on anything other than arbitrary decision making.

We dont have a justice system, or a rehabilitation system.

We have a revenge system.

[R-e-n-n-a-t]

Very true. It'd be nice if criminals were treated as the misinformed, mentally ill individuals who they are, but in America we prefer to make them suffer and turn them into more violent criminals who, after their pointless imprisonment, merely decide to hate authority more.

Plus, some laws are just stupid. Really, it's illegal to have assisted suicide? So if I was 98 years old with cancer and no hope of improvement, it's illegal for me to opt out? What kind of bullshit is this?

[reverendjeremiah]

Very true. It'd be nice if criminals were treated as the misinformed, mentally ill individuals who they are, but in America we prefer to make them suffer and turn them into more violent criminals who, after their pointless imprisonment, merely decide to hate authority more.

Plus, some laws are just stupid. Really, it's illegal to have assisted suicide? So if I was 98 years old with cancer and no hope of improvement, it's illegal for me to opt out? What kind of bullshit is this?

Im not sure if "misinformed", and especially "mentally ill" apply to most criminals. Im sure they fit with some, but not most.

Strange, though, how most Americans dispise the idea of assisted suicide... but support forced executions.

From my point of view, there is an absurd relationship in this human condition of law and justice.

Arbitrary decisions for justice appear to be nothing more than revenge

Where as Scientific decisions can be inhuman and cruel just as well.

Logic itself is inhuman. Humans are emotional and passionate beings, dwelling on their individuality. Logic makes demands that go counter to those human properties and much more.

[DeistPaladin]

The logical problems with Hell are legion. Let me see if I can compile a complete list:

1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it.

2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.

3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture.

4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrongthinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.

5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment.

6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth.

7. If life is a "test" as Muslims often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem.

8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life.

9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh-Allah? Why not instead organize them into a ectoplasmic army to storm the gates of Heaven?

10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven is submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character.

This is what I could come up with off the top of my head. I'm sure others can add to the list. The bottom line is that it's hard for me to understand how any god could come up with this salvation scheme. On the other hand, it's not hard for me to understand how human clergy would want to invent such a salvation scheme.

I'll let Occam's Razor settle the matter.