Is it better to lie to people in church?

[Minimalist]

did he really lie or was he trying to protect you from an embarrassing situation

Yes. He lied. And not professing belief in childish bullshit is not an embarrassment for us.

I could see where you would be embarrassed by it, though.

[IATIA]

Sometimes a perceived lie is not a lie but love in disguise.

No. It is still a lie, though justified through rationalization. I am not condemning it, but it is still a lie.

[Jackalope]

Sometimes a perceived lie is not a lie but love in disguise.

I'm unsurprised that GC could say this with a straight face.

While there may have been no harm in the lie, and in fact it may have been done out of love, it is still a lie. There is no malicious intent required for it to be a lie, only that it is knowingly false.

lie
noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
4. the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
verb (used without object)
5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
6. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

[Godscreated]

Sometimes a perceived lie is not a lie but love in disguise.

I'm unsurprised that GC could say this with a straight face.

While there may have been no harm in the lie, and in fact it may have been done out of love, it is still a lie. There is no malicious intent required for it to be a lie, only that it is knowingly false.

lie
noun
1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.
4. the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.
verb (used without object)
5. to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.
6. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

I know the definition of a lie and I understand some think that the letter of the law is all there is. I know that to protect someone with a statement that is not exactly the truth is walking a fine line. In this situation I believe there was no lie, only a grandfather who was protecting a loved one. Now do not misunderstand, I'm not saying that love is a valid reason to cover wrongs, in this situation AtheistAtheist was not doing anything that was wrong, nor was the grandfather in the example I gave. Jesus told the Jewish priest that they live by the letter of the law with no compassion and that they were in danger of judgement. By the statements made most that have responded see that compassion is important. In this situation I believe AtheistAtheist should be thankful for the way grandfather handled this situation, he could have said he's an atheist see if you can talk some sense into him, putting AtheistAtheist in a difficult situation and most uncomfortable at the least. Tell grandfather thank you, be grateful for his love instead of criticizing him.

[ElDinero]

But it is still a lie. This is a rare chance for you to find some middle ground, GC. I think most people agree that there may have been acceptable reasons for his Grandad to say what he did. But it IS a lie, by definition.

[Jackalope]

Blah, blah, blah.

You can rationalize it all you like - and in fact, I agree with you on the point that no wrong was done.

However, it's still a lie. The question before us is "Is it wrong to lie in some circumstances?" not "Is a lie always a lie?". The answer to the first question is debatable. The answer to the second is yes.

[IATIA]

I agree with you on the point that no wrong was done.

Not necessarily.

"Well, he goes to church with his mother"

"Well, I see his mother in church all the time and he was never with her."

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I know the definition of a lie...

Obviously not.

[AthiestAtheist]

Since no christian has weighed in on this yet I would like to say this, did he really lie or was he trying to protect you from an embarrassing situation, at least what he conceived as embarrassing for you. Even in a christian worldview not everything is black and white. Let's look at it from your position, if your grandfather bumped into you and several of your friends, and he was wearing some clothes that in your opinion were terrible, what would you do? Tell him that his clothing looked terrible knowing your friends would laugh at him or would you cut that possibility off and say hey you look great and save him from a possible embarrassment. Sometimes a perceived lie is not a lie but love in disguise.

So Christians would rather have me lie to them. Got it.

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did he really lie or was he trying to protect you from an embarrassing situation

Yes. He lied. And not professing belief in childish bullshit is not an embarrassment for us.

I could see where you would be embarrassed by it, though.

Exactly, GC.

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I know the definition of a lie and I understand some think that the letter of the law is all there is. I know that to protect someone with a statement that is not exactly the truth is walking a fine line. In this situation I believe there was no lie, only a grandfather who was protecting a loved one. Now do not misunderstand, I'm not saying that love is a valid reason to cover wrongs, in this situation AtheistAtheist was not doing anything that was wrong, nor was the grandfather in the example I gave. Jesus told the Jewish priest that they live by the letter of the law with no compassion and that they were in danger of judgement. By the statements made most that have responded see that compassion is important. In this situation I believe AtheistAtheist should be thankful for the way grandfather handled this situation, he could have said he's an atheist see if you can talk some sense into him, putting AtheistAtheist in a difficult situation and most uncomfortable at the least. Tell grandfather thank you, be grateful for his love instead of criticizing him.

So you understand what a lie is and you still say because "someone was looking out for a loved one" it is not a lie. Do you not see the contradiction here. It may not be wrong in this case, but it is still a lie. Circumstances do not change the definitions of words. Also in this case, he wasn't protecting me, he was protecting her/himself.

"He could have said he's an atheist see if you can talk some sense into him, putting AtheistAtheist in a difficult situation and most uncomfortable at the least." That is a very bad comparison. It is a total false dilemma. Saying " he's an atheist" is fine, because it's the truth, and I would have no reason to give a f*** what she thinks, because I would probably never see her again. From that to "he's an atheist see if you can talk some sense into him" is going not "true", but just plain mean. It also would have caused a situation, so that is quite a ridiculous suggestion for a response.

[Anymouse]

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So, I was doing my grandfather a favor by helping him set up some stuff for an event at church. We ended up talking to some people there. He usually goes there by himself, so the number 1 thing being said was: "I didn't know you had a grandson!" Eventually it got to the point where someone asked: "Why don't you bring your grandson with you?" His answer was "Well, he goes to church with his mother", which is an outright lie. I don't know if he knows I'm an atheist, but my dad does, and I know he told some other family members at some point (he has a big mouth), plus we have had some loud discussions over the existence of God in the same house (although my grandfather doesn't have the best hearing), so it is possible that he knows. That doesn't change the fact that telling her I went to church with my mother was just a flat out lie. I don't know why that was necessary. "He isn't really into church" would have been enough. I don't know. So is it more polite to just lie to people at church like that, to avoid an awkward situation? Are people (black women) so aloof that they don't realize some people just aren't interested in church, and that pressing the matter just won't work, and is in fact rude?

Also, in this situation, it was a black church.

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In my Wiccan experience, my Christian relatives, when the subject of my own views come up, will offer up either a similar prevarication, or find a way to change the subject.

My own suspicion is that if the relative is associated with a "heathen" (possibly better than being associated with me now as an atheist), that reflects badly on him- or herself. The relative is torn between the "obvious" need to "witness" and possibly anger me (their relation), or anger and be ostracised by their religious group - a choice those who like me in my family are unwilling to make.

Likewise, I will actually go along with it, for the same reasons: I do not wish to make trouble for the relative (not many will talk to me now, though it remains to be seen if giving up Wicca in favour of atheism will improve my relations with my relations, or upset them further).

James. Hit-and-run hammered dulcimer player (that's hammered dulcimer player, not drunk dulcimer player).

[IATIA]

A better response could have been, "He hasn't been in awhile. You know how kids are." Maybe not completely honest, but not a lie.