Did Jesus Even Really Exist?

[The Grand Nudger]

Sedanta really was ten feet tall, and his spear was magical. He really did tie himself to a rock in a war spasm and single-handedly beat off a raiding party (his corpse really did drop the blade on the first person who approached). A group of children really were turned into swans that lived hundreds of years. Oisin was actually a human-deer hybrid, and Finn really ate the magic fish.

[Epimethean]

Dat's jus' ... der koolist!

[reverendjeremiah]

LOL...people and their need for mythology to be "actual history"

[Minimalist]

Here's a quote from the "reliable eye-witness accounts"

You do know that not even the author of "Matthew" ( whoever the fuck it may have been ) makes the slightest claim to being an "eye-witness" don't you, G-C.

As a matter of fact, the damn thing could begin "Once Upon A Time" and be about as convincing.


Nope, idiots like you came along centuries after the fact and hung baggage on this crap that it cannot hope to move.

[Godscreated]

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled.

Did I mention Herod Antipas? As the ruler the local client state of Rome, you can't dismiss him so easily.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Herod, if it was one who knew Jesus I believe I said higher ranking people.

This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work.

I quoted you the very passage of Mathew that states that Jesus' fame spread beyond the small areas he traveled.

Syria, now that's along way off, get real please.

Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history...

None that brought back the dead, cast out demons, healed the sick...

You have completely avoided the question, why? I've asked an honest question, can't you reply likewise? I believe "any" covers everyone.

---

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled. This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work. John the Baptist preached in about the same area and probably worked no longer than Jesus. Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history, should anyone even expect that individuals of their status (poor as they come) would ever have a historical record. I believe another reason that historical records on either are so few that, those perceived as trouble makers that upstage those who have great authority influence those who write that history. Is it not true that kings often threatened to kill those who would put them in bad light and so history is some what skewed from what is true.

So how did the bible survive all this?

What?

---

Casting the patina of doubt over what little we have with regards to antiquity does nothing to help your case. It only makes matters worse GC. Now I doubt the authenticity of any document yet to be discovered which would confirm christ's existence. After all, it could just be propaganda. Paid for a by a powerful christian sympathizer. Course, I bet that this line of reasoning only works for you when the conclusions reached are in your favor, right? You've got your answer, now you're just looking for ways to convince yourself and others that it's the right answer. Well, I remain unconvinced. Maybe if you let the evidence speak for itself without insisting that it has to conform to your preconceived notion of "biblical history" I'd take you seriously. Whats that? You don't have any, ah, I see.

I do not believe there is much if any historical records of Christ and I was not asking for any, so what ever point you where trying to make is pointless.

---

Apologists will try to tell you that he was a nobody to those who would have written the accounts. They like to work in a little underdog narrative. Son of god, miracles left, right, and center. Entirely unremarkable.

Just like what Lucent said about the Trinity, it's having your cake and eating it too.

Jesus' life was the "greatest story ever told", except that he was an unremarkable nobody that never got anyone's attention outside his band of followers.

Here's a quote from the "reliable eye-witness accounts" discussing this insignificant, unremarkable ministry that never got anyone's attention:

Matthew 4:23-25 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

Yeah, totally unremarkable ministry. Just some nobody that no one ever paid attention to pretty much.

There are plenty more examples in the Gospel accounts. Herod Antipas wondered if he was John the Baptist reincarnated (Matt 14:1-2). A centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant (Luke 7:1-10). A wealthy woman sought Jesus out to cure her illness (Mark 5:25-34). Two wealthy friends of Jesus convinced a Roman governor to allow a crucified man a burial (John 19:38-42). A wealthy man sought Jesus out to be advised how he might be saved (Mark 10:17-23). John the Baptist, who was himself a successful religious leader, declared Jesus the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29) the one for whom he was to be a forerunner (Matt 3:3). All this is to say nothing of the established clergy at the time, for whom Jesus was a constant thorn in their side, so much that they met on Passover Freaking Eve to conspire against him.

Read the Gospel accounts. If you accept them as a reliable account, you do not have the option of discounting Jesus as an obscure figure.

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled. This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work. John the Baptist preached in about the same area and probably worked no longer than Jesus. Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history, should anyone even expect that individuals of their status (poor as they come) would ever have a historical record. I believe another reason that historical records on either are so few that, those perceived as trouble makers that upstage those who have great authority influence those who write that history. Is it not true that kings often threatened to kill those who would put them in bad light and so history is some what skewed from what is true.

The NT is NOT an EYEWITNESS account of anything. None of the NT authors ever saw a physical jesus on the face of the earth. Not one! The Encloypedia Biblica states

that the order of events in the life of Christ as given to us by the Evangelists are contradictory and untrustworthy and that the chronological framework of the Gospels is worthless. In other words Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote not what they knew but only what they imagined.

New Testament itself contains the strongest evidence that Christ was not a real person.


Walter R Cassels author of "Supernatural Religion" considered to be one of the greatest works on Christianity ever written had this to say:

Quote:"After having exhausted the literature and the testimony bearing on the point, we have not found a single distinct trace of any of those Gospels during the First Century and a half after the death of Christ."

The Gospel of Mark knows nothing of a virgin birth, a sermon on the Mount, the Lords prayer or any other of the facts of Jesus supposed life. These were facts added by Matthew and Luke. The Gospel of Mark as we have it is not the original Mark.
In the first (3) Gospels and the fourth you meet (2) different Christs. It should be (3).

(1). According to Mark Christ was a man.
(2). According to Matthew and Luke he was a demigod.
(3). While John insist he was God himself.

Now try giving some real proof and not the opinion of others.

EDITED BY DEIST PALADIN TO FIX QUOTE BOXES

[Happy UnBeliever]

---

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled.

Did I mention Herod Antipas? As the ruler the local client state of Rome, you can't dismiss him so easily.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Herod, if it was one who knew Jesus I believe I said higher ranking people.

This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work.

I quoted you the very passage of Mathew that states that Jesus' fame spread beyond the small areas he traveled.

Syria, now that's along way off, get real please.

Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history...

None that brought back the dead, cast out demons, healed the sick...

You have completely avoided the question, why? I've asked an honest question, can't you reply likewise? I believe "any" covers everyone.

---

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled. This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work. John the Baptist preached in about the same area and probably worked no longer than Jesus. Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history, should anyone even expect that individuals of their status (poor as they come) would ever have a historical record. I believe another reason that historical records on either are so few that, those perceived as trouble makers that upstage those who have great authority influence those who write that history. Is it not true that kings often threatened to kill those who would put them in bad light and so history is some what skewed from what is true.

So how did the bible survive all this?

What?

---

Casting the patina of doubt over what little we have with regards to antiquity does nothing to help your case. It only makes matters worse GC. Now I doubt the authenticity of any document yet to be discovered which would confirm christ's existence. After all, it could just be propaganda. Paid for a by a powerful christian sympathizer. Course, I bet that this line of reasoning only works for you when the conclusions reached are in your favor, right? You've got your answer, now you're just looking for ways to convince yourself and others that it's the right answer. Well, I remain unconvinced. Maybe if you let the evidence speak for itself without insisting that it has to conform to your preconceived notion of "biblical history" I'd take you seriously. Whats that? You don't have any, ah, I see.

I do not believe there is much if any historical records of Christ and I was not asking for any, so what ever point you where trying to make is pointless.

---

Apologists will try to tell you that he was a nobody to those who would have written the accounts. They like to work in a little underdog narrative. Son of god, miracles left, right, and center. Entirely unremarkable.

Just like what Lucent said about the Trinity, it's having your cake and eating it too.

Jesus' life was the "greatest story ever told", except that he was an unremarkable nobody that never got anyone's attention outside his band of followers.

Here's a quote from the "reliable eye-witness accounts" discussing this insignificant, unremarkable ministry that never got anyone's attention:

Matthew 4:23-25 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

Yeah, totally unremarkable ministry. Just some nobody that no one ever paid attention to pretty much.

There are plenty more examples in the Gospel accounts. Herod Antipas wondered if he was John the Baptist reincarnated (Matt 14:1-2). A centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant (Luke 7:1-10). A wealthy woman sought Jesus out to cure her illness (Mark 5:25-34). Two wealthy friends of Jesus convinced a Roman governor to allow a crucified man a burial (John 19:38-42). A wealthy man sought Jesus out to be advised how he might be saved (Mark 10:17-23). John the Baptist, who was himself a successful religious leader, declared Jesus the "Lamb of God" (John 1:29) the one for whom he was to be a forerunner (Matt 3:3). All this is to say nothing of the established clergy at the time, for whom Jesus was a constant thorn in their side, so much that they met on Passover Freaking Eve to conspire against him.

Read the Gospel accounts. If you accept them as a reliable account, you do not have the option of discounting Jesus as an obscure figure.

I agree Jesus was well known by the common people and some higher ranking where He traveled. This however was a very small area and covered only three years of work. John the Baptist preached in about the same area and probably worked no longer than Jesus. Do you know of any others as low ranking in status that has a larger record in history, should anyone even expect that individuals of their status (poor as they come) would ever have a historical record. I believe another reason that historical records on either are so few that, those perceived as trouble makers that upstage those who have great authority influence those who write that history. Is it not true that kings often threatened to kill those who would put them in bad light and so history is some what skewed from what is true.

The NT is NOT an EYEWITNESS account of anything. None of the NT authors ever saw a physical jesus on the face of the earth. Not one! The Encloypedia Biblica states

that the order of events in the life of Christ as given to us by the Evangelists are contradictory and untrustworthy and that the chronological framework of the Gospels is worthless. In other words Mark, Luke, Matthew and John wrote not what they knew but only what they imagined.

New Testament itself contains the strongest evidence that Christ was not a real person.


Walter R Cassels author of "Supernatural Religion" considered to be one of the greatest works on Christianity ever written had this to say:

Quote:"After having exhausted the literature and the testimony bearing on the point, we have not found a single distinct trace of any of those Gospels during the First Century and a half after the death of Christ."

The Gospel of Mark knows nothing of a virgin birth, a sermon on the Mount, the Lords prayer or any other of the facts of Jesus supposed life. These were facts added by Matthew and Luke. The Gospel of Mark as we have it is not the original Mark.
In the first (3) Gospels and the fourth you meet (2) different Christs. It should be (3).

(1). According to Mark Christ was a man.
(2). According to Matthew and Luke he was a demigod.
(3). While John insist he was God himself.

Now try giving some real proof and not the opinion of others.

---

Thats enough to convict your theory more than enough. Now why don't you provide evidence outside your silly little book of anthology to prove this jesus ever lived. My guess is you can't not with out that book of anthology you call a Babble. Your response is a typical christian denial. Fact is ANTIQUITY does NOT show any RECORD of a Jewish Messiah as recorded by christians any where.

Now please present:
archaeological, forensic or documentary evidence that shows Jesus was ever alive.

Until you can do that he's a MYTH created by the CHURCH and presented to people as a LIE!

[DeistPaladin]

I'm not sure why you mentioned Herod, if it was one who knew Jesus I believe I said higher ranking people.

How high a rank do you want? Local ruler isn't enough? What do you want? Emperor Tiberius?

Syria, now that's along way off, get real please.

For the time, yes. It doesn't fit your narrative that Jesus was just a local yocal that nobody outside a small group of peasants paid any attention to.

You have completely avoided the question, why? I've asked an honest question, can't you reply likewise? I believe "any" covers everyone.

OK, John the Baptist is an analogous example of one less famous who has more of a footprint in recorded history. Josephus mentioned him in a passage that wasn't a glaring forgery.

[The Grand Nudger]

Here again is the problem GC. Your attempt to discredit the conclusions of others poisons your own well. Your opinion, or anyone else's opinion in support of the existence of god means precisely as much as their opponents. Exactly nothing. We're back to evidence again, something you don't have a single shred of in support of your conclusions. As to the opposite end of the spectrum, this absence of evidence is exactly what leads many of us to conclude that your god christ doesn't exist. Not today, not in history, not ever....... anywhere. That, combined with the evidence we do have for a thing called myth, or legend (or my personal favorite, fairy tales).

[Epimethean]

OK, love this band, but the lyrics pretty much sum up GC's and all the christfuckers' beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8V-NKcQ-_s

Michael Been, despite your errors, your music is missed.

[Minimalist]

Now try giving some real proof and not the opinion of others.

You wouldn't know the difference, G-C.