Seriously.

[Dotard]

Let me put it more plainly.

Your proposal fucks the working poor in the ass.

Elaborate please. Be specific.

In addition, doesn't taxing business to pay tax on net profits allow them to continue the same accounting shenanigans they've been doing forever? I ask because you did make the distinction that it was net profits (I.e. bottom line) rather than gross (e.g. EBITDA).

Shenanigans? You saying it allows them to commit some kinda tax evasion? That's when the law steps in. I didn't say do away with audits. Under my ideal system there would be no need to audit individuals any longer freeing up the man power to watchdog on those buisnesses.

[Jackalope]

The working poor currently have a net negative tax rate (due to credits). The bottom two quintiles pay no tax at all.

My friend (who I spoke of earlier) made $9000 last year and received a $4000 check from the IRS. I know this to be true, I helped her file her taxes.

Under the current system, she has $13k to provide for her family. With a 10% flat tax, no deductions or credits, she has $8100.

Clear enough?

[Dotard]

His "proposal" relies on these fantasies:

1) Rich people earned it the hard way.
2) You earn what you deserve
3) You magically can support losing percentages of your income when you are low income instead of judging based off of cost of living.

Bullshit.

1.) People earn what they earn. That's the bottom line.
2.) Where the fuck did you get that?! I never mentioned anything about what anyone 'deserves'. Just argue the point if you don't agree and don't resort to creating strawmen. Ya fukin numbnut.
3.) My proposal bases it off of income. Cost of living? What the fuk man I bet the 'cost of living' varies wildly between you and I and all the others here. Why should I have to pay a larger percent of my income than you do (or visa-versa) because of the lifestyle or career CHOICES you, or I, have made?

Damn it! I hate math. So you make 57,000 dollars a year? Why is it you are 'barely making ends meet'?

Because I live in the motherfucking Bay Area and support three people? I live extraordinarily cheaply, take the two hour train to and from my work, and it still is fucking expensive. Did I also mention that I live in the mountains?

See above.

If my entire salary went just to me, you can be fucking assured I'd be A-OK. But I'm not. Why?

Don't really care. Are you argueing that because of the choices you made everyone owes you a break? Somehow we are all morally bound to give you money out of our pockets?

Because the world isn't fucking ideal and many, many people support more than their own hides.

Who said it was? And SO WHAT you support more than yourself. YOU made that choice to do so so YOU should shoulder 100% of the burden.
You are essentially argueing that I am obliged to pay more than you because of the choices you made.

10% of mine is 2500 and I do just fine. But that's beside the point, it's not based on your lifestyle, just your income. So what if Bill Gates has billions left after his 10%? So what if you have $51,300 after your taxes. So what if I have $22,500.

What is it? WHAT IS IT?

Money is not a "magical infinite spring" -- it can be better approximated as a zero sum game. So if Billy G. has billions in storage, what economic good can that possibly do?

None, because it is cloistered away and held like some reservoir.

So the "benefit" (often espoused by trickle-down-cock suckers) is nil even then, because the fucking cash just sits there.

So what. It's his cash to do as he pleases.

We all paid an equal percentile of our income. We earn what we earn.

Do you have anything better than that? I'm not feeling sorry for you or jealous of Bill.

Nope, I think "No, because it will wipe out my support net to help some money-hoarding billionaire families and I fucking don't like it" is a pretty damn good argument.

You fail to show how you are 'helping some money-hoarding billionaire families'. All I see are tears.

---

Flat tax works in a non-capitalist society where the taxes go towards collective needs, and not towards wars and non-necessary public spending. If you could be guaranteed free education, health care, etc. with a flat tax then it would be easily accepted. But the problem comes in when everyone pays the same percentage but all of the tax money doesn't go towards collective needs.

non-necessary public spending. Who says what is necessary and what is not? I think here in America if you don't like the way the money is spent or you want it spent another way, you elect officials to represent that.
(why do I have a urge to bust out laughing? When I wrote that it made me laugh.) But seriously, who gets to say what is necessary and what is not?

---

The working poor currently have a net negative tax rate (due to credits). The bottom two quintiles pay no tax at all.

My friend (who I spoke of earlier) made $9000 last year and received a $4000 check from the IRS. I know this to be true, I helped her file her taxes.

Under the current system, she has $13k to provide for her family. With a 10% flat tax, no deductions or credits, she has $8100.

Clear enough?

And where did that $4000 check come from? OUR pockets. It didn't magically appear, she got a piece of that from me. All my love to your friend, but if you don't mind helping her then YOU help her. Why am I obliged to hand her some of mine? There is no issue with clarity here, you are failing to provide adequate reasons why I need to pay more of my income, or actually provide income in the case of your friend, than another?

[rhonin85]

Dotard, why is that you think poor people are taking your money? You pay your money to the Gov't for them use however they need. The Rich would overwhelming benefit from a flat tax and no a rich person with more money does not help the economy. Millions of middle to Low Class people with extra spending money does.

[Autumnlicious]

Don't even bother.

As far as Dotard sees it, you get your greedy paws on it, you can do whatever you want with it.

Even if you have accumulated an amount that is economically damaging.

But hey, maybe if you suck enough rich cock, they'll reward you, right?

[Jackalope]

The working poor currently have a net negative tax rate (due to credits). The bottom two quintiles pay no tax at all.

My friend (who I spoke of earlier) made $9000 last year and received a $4000 check from the IRS. I know this to be true, I helped her file her taxes.

Under the current system, she has $13k to provide for her family. With a 10% flat tax, no deductions or credits, she has $8100.

Clear enough?

And where did that $4000 check come from? OUR pockets. It didn't magically appear, she got a piece of that from me. All my love to your friend, but if you don't mind helping her then YOU help her. Why am I obliged to hand her some of mine? There is no issue with clarity here, you are failing to provide adequate reasons why I need to pay more of my income, or actually provide income in the case of your friend, than another?

You misunderstand my point. I'm not making the argument that some degree of wealth redistribution is good (though for the record, I do think it is). I'm simply stating that implementing your proposal would put someone I care about out on the streets with her two children (i.e. my comment about it 'fucking the working poor in the ass'). I find that situation to be unacceptable. For the record, I *do* help people in need, voluntarily out of my own pocket.

For the moment, let's forget about the $4000 in credits this person currently receives. Taking $900 in taxes out of the pocket of a working, poor, single parent caring for two children who currently has no federal tax obligation is monstrous. For someone in that situation, taking away $900 in income annually is the difference between being able to feed your family or not. We're talking about someone who is doing the best that they can under the circumstances, in a state with one of the worst unemployment rates in the country.

I used to feel as you appear to do. With my cozy middle-class upbringing, I hadn't been exposed to working-class poverty, and it was pretty easy for me to believe that the poor were that way because they were lazy. Clearly, I no longer hold that position.

It would be nice if we lived in a world where every person who was willing and able to work had full employment, and could "pull their own weight". Where disability, mental illness, and lack of education and opportunity didn't exist. Where people didn't abandon their spouse and kids to poverty. Where the greedy didn't prey upon the less fortunate to line their own pockets.

We don't live in that world - and because we don't live in that world, it's my belief that we have a duty to help those in need. Currently, that's in the form of private charity, public assistance (if you can qualify), and tax credits to the working poor. I have no problem with this. Clearly, you disagree, and that's your right.

Sure, I grouse about taxes come April 15th like many people do - but if I'm going to bitch and moan about taxes, it's going to be because of the enormous expense of maintaining our bloated military and other wasteful institutions. It's certainly not going to be because we redistribute a small amount of income to those in need.

We (I assume you also live in the USA) live in a country that has historically enjoyed tremendous prosperity - and in my view, it's shameful that in such a country, we have such widespread poverty and need still exists.

I'm all for simplifying our tax code - but not at the expense of those in need.

---

Edited to add: Regardless of whether we help the needy via tax credits or not - you're going to be helping to pay for their needs one way or another whether you like it or not. That is, unless we as a society decide that we'd rather have them kicked out into the streets to fend for themselves. I'm glad that we haven't done that, and believe that we can and should do more, both individually and as a society.

[Autumnlicious]

Your argument, CD, fails to address the "I got mine; fuck you guys" aspect of Dotard's argument.

[LastPoet]

Sure Dote, we can have flat taxes... In the day we also have flat wages...

[Jackalope]

Your argument, CD, fails to address the "I got mine; fuck you guys" aspect of Dotard's argument.

I didn't find it worthy of debate.

I'll admit it - I used to lean (slightly) towards the conservative side on many if not most economic issues. The economic train wreck of the last decade, along with seeing first hand the struggles of good decent people, has completely changed my mind. (Not to mention the ass raping perpetrated by the mortgage and banking industries.)

I personally have been fortunate through the economic troubles of the 21st century - I've managed to keep the same job through more "right-sizings" than I care to count, and my salary is enough to meet my needs and support my child well (he lives with my ex), as well as help others in my circle of friends when I can. But - I've seen so many of the people I care for struggle to get by in tough times. I just can't have a "fuck you, I've got mine" attitude towards them or anyone else who is in need. And now - unfortunately, my own fortune has changed and I've found myself off work and living on disability

A lot of good people have been economically raped during the crises of the last decade or so, and in my view it's heartless to do nothing but give them the finger.

...and frankly, I don't really give a flying fuck if anyone disagrees.

[Erinome]

And where did that $4000 check come from? OUR pockets. It didn't magically appear, she got a piece of that from me. All my love to your friend, but if you don't mind helping her then YOU help her. Why am I obliged to hand her some of mine? There is no issue with clarity here, you are failing to provide adequate reasons why I need to pay more of my income, or actually provide income in the case of your friend, than another?

No, wrong, sorry. She paid that $4000 dollars. The government borrowed a little out of her fucking paycheck every week, and at the end of the year, she submits proof that she's poor enough to need it back.

The government is stealing your money. You want someone at whom to direct your anger, I suggest you look toward WallStreet DC. Being angry at a single, struggling mother for taking it in the ass from the same people (via shitty economy) is just misdirected shittiness. Congratulations, sucker, you're doing exactly what they want and need you to do: Accusing another of their victims of their crimes against you. It helps them get away with shit like fucking you up the ass with no lube some more.