(July 21, 2015 at 9:11 am)robvalue Wrote: It reminds me a lot of when I was in a bad relationship and all my friends were telling me why I shouldn't be with that person. I was under the spell, and made all kinds of excuses. I just wouldn't listen. But when I finally got out, everything they were saying made sense, and I looked back and said, "What the fuck was I doing?"

Right back at ya, rob.

You are under the "spell" of the prince of this world, and he does not want you breaking free.

Since you have never walked in the light, the darkness seems normal to you.

OK. Satan is at least as powerful as God and can ruin his plans.

I already told you many times I'm not worshipping that nut sack of a god even if I thought it was real. So what do you hope to achieve?

(July 21, 2015 at 7:24 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Sorry, sport.

I died laughing. When you can't answer someone's questions about your faith you resort to talking down to them. That's really big of you, Randy. You college-educated, man, you! Here, let me try to lower myself to your level so we can better connect intellectually, you clever 55 year old man, you!

Just because you're in the last 3rd of your life and are desperate to hold on to your dead traditions doesn't mean your ideas are somehow more noble. You have also demonstrated that claiming a college level education doesn't make you appear more intelligent, especially in the light of how stupid you've made yourself look in this little thread of mine. I don't know much (in fact, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know), but what I do know is this; when I'm 55 years old, I won't be spending time as you do trolling the internet because I'll have better things to do, more people to love on, and an authentic human experience to live. You'll notice it took me less than an hour to thoughtfully type out a comprehensive response to your pathetically simple apologetics in your last post addressed to me. That's because I don't have time to deal with bottom-dwellers such as yourself. I'm too busy providing for people who are worth caring about. Your desperate, cliff-hanger grip on dead faith is evident that you've not got a lot of other things to do in life. Sorry that you need to feed that little inner child of yours, that is so apparent by your posts, with fantasy and make believe friends that will never-ever-ever leave you, but that's not an atheist's fault. If you need a god to tell you you're special, because no one else will... don't blame an atheist. If you could, child... understand that at 55 years old... we adults expect you to act like a grown up.

And no, you didn't answer the question because you're not including the claim of your religion that there is ample evidence in support of your faith that everyone in the world can believe. But nice try...

(July 21, 2015 at 7:24 am)Randy Carson Wrote: sport.

I just thought, if Satan is opposed to God, that makes satan the good one. It makes sense. So if either are worth worshipping, it would be him. And apparently he's already following me around so god can hide behind him, so all is well. Keep that nutter God away from me.

Anyone reading the bible with no idea who Yahweh was meant to be would very quickly determine he was an evil prick, and anyone opposing him is on the side of good. Sign me up.

Obviously this is all bollocks. It's just that it's not even consistent bollocks. What's it like living in a fairy tale?

(July 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Spacetime Wrote: 4) Why does god let thousands of toddlers die every day of starvation?

Thousands? That does seem like a lot...

Would it be acceptable to you if God only allowed a few hundred to die of starvation every day?

If he let just one person ever starve, I'd think he was a prick. He created the whole "eat or you die" system in the first place. He didn't have to do it that way. And he can provide food for free. Create it by magic. The fact that he doesn't, and watches someone starve, makes it murder by neglect. He doesn't get a free pass because he's a god.

Unless he's not actually anything like as powerful as people suggest, and just pretended he created all this stuff and made the rules...

Additional: I presume God would be able to destroy himself if he so wished. If not, that's yet another way I'm more powerful than him. He can't lie, he can't do evil, he can't prove he exists, he can't forgive without pretending to sacrifice a part of himself, can't kill himself, can't stop rapes even when he's present...

If he can destroy himself, then I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he has done so. He would have had to wait however many billions of years for us to even turn up. That's got to grate, even for a god. Probably topped himself long ago. It would explain a lot.

(July 21, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Spacetime Wrote:

(July 21, 2015 at 7:24 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Sorry, sport.

I died laughing.  When you can't answer someone's questions about your faith you resort to talking down to them.  That's really big of you, Randy.  You college-educated, man, you!  Here, let me try to lower myself to your level so we can better connect intellectually, you clever 55 year old man, you!

Here, you wrote "Sorry, mate." So, I wrote, "Sorry, sport" as a variation. Why do you take issue with what I wrote when you wrote something similar yourself?

Quote:Just because you're in the last 3rd of your life and are desperate to hold on to your dead traditions doesn't mean your ideas are somehow more noble.  You have also demonstrated that claiming a college level education doesn't make you appear more intelligent, especially in the light of how stupid you've made yourself look in this little thread of mine.  I don't know much (in fact, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know), but what I do know is this; when I'm 55 years old, I won't be spending time as you do trolling the internet because I'll have better things to do, more people to love on, and an authentic human experience to live.  You'll notice it took me less than an hour to thoughtfully type out a comprehensive response to your pathetically simple apologetics in your last post addressed to me.  That's because I don't have time to deal with bottom-dwellers such as yourself.  I'm too busy providing for people who are worth caring about.  Your desperate, cliff-hanger grip on dead faith is evident that you've not got a lot of other things to do in life.  Sorry that you need to feed that little inner child of yours, that is so apparent by your posts, with fantasy and make believe friends that will never-ever-ever leave you, but that's not an atheist's fault.  If you need a god to tell you you're special, because no one else will... don't blame an atheist.  If you could, child... understand that at 55 years old... we adults expect you to act like a grown up.

And no, you didn't answer the question because you're not including the claim of your religion that there is ample evidence in support of your faith that everyone in the world can believe.  But nice try...

Apparently when you can't deal with the questions, you resort to talking about me. That's always helpful.

So, I'll keep this really simple so that I don't take up too much space or time...

The Four-Question Approach to Thinking About Theodicy

Question #1:

Would you like to see laws prohibiting a person from choosing to have or obtain an abortion, prohibiting premarital sex, or prohibiting homosexual behavior?

It's not a trick question, so you can be honest. Thanks.

Oh, and don't forget my question in post #175.

duplicate

(July 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Spacetime Wrote: Cool.  An unbiased theist.  In that case, I have loads of sincere questions.

Well I have to say none of us are totally unbiased, I will do the best I can to honestly answer these question, you have many ans i do not know how long this might take and I would rather do this at one time, in the future I would appreciate one or two at a time, that's if you will have more. 

Spacetime Wrote:1) The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.

What I believe and understand about belief is that it is a choice and it couldn't be any other way or it would be forced on us.

I noticed that you have emphasized, trying desperately, made tremendous effort. This is also against the teachings of Christ himself. He said that each of us would be called by the Father through the Holy Spirit, what Christians calls conviction of the heart. This means you can't come into belief without the help of God and He will but, you have to allow this to happen. You're choosing to allow God to put into you an understanding beyond what you or the world can achieve. We are to focused on the physical as humans and what God gives us is the spiritual that is beyond our reach.
I don't think you are ignorant and I suspect you've read much of the Bible if not all, but like many you are reading and understanding only the surface ie. the physical things not the spiritual. If you will remember I replied to you about hell, that when you take hell out of the equation so to speak you have eliminated eternal justice. You are essentially deconstructing the essence of scripture and doing what you asked me not to do, that's not to deconstruct the whole of your question, so why are you deconstructing the scriptures and trying to arrive at what God has given us. 

Spacetime Wrote:2) If scripture says that I can know the difference between good and evil, and I believe that the god of scripture is evil... why should I worship this god?

Because you have not allowed God through a personal relationship to teach you who He is, you are basing your opinion of God with a physical understanding and without allowing Him to show you who He is and of coarse that only comes after one has accepted Christ as their savior and Lord. You need to keep in mind we are not dealing with a physical being and one who is omniscient, who is eternal and who's plan is beyond our complete understanding. God said, "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are above and beyond your's," the thoughts He speaks of is also understand of all things. We do not understand what life is, He created it.

Spacetime Wrote:3) If scripture is god-breathed and right for teaching, why does it conclude that the Earth is 6,000 years old, which would put the creation of man in the middle of the height of Egyptian pyramid-building?

This is a subject that is highly argued and it would really depend on what wants to believe, I do know this, not only do creation scientist believe the dating of the Egyptian dynasties are wrong but some secular scientist are concerned they may be wrong. Of coarse this will probably only muddy the water, but it does put concern on the age of the pyramids. 

Spacetime Wrote:4) Why does god let thousands of toddlers die every day of starvation?

I actually think there's a question here that you should consider. Why do the people of this world allow those children to starve, God created us to take care of our fellow man, why do we not spend the money to help them all, the moneys wasted and spent on government projects around the world could easily pay for the foods needed, for the technology to help these peoples to sustain themselves, to drill wells to supply clean water. We are the ones who created these problems, why then is it God's responsibility to right our wrongs. The world today is in a mode of "bail me out I screwed up," this is something that's been taught it wasn't the way things use to be, socialism has been responsible for this type of thinking and now those who support this kind of thinking try to apply it to God. I've been asked this question a number of times and I ask why should God bail out the world, He didn't cause the problem then I ask, what are you doing about helping these poor children if you are actually that concerned about them. I say that anyone who throws away food has no right to question God.

Spacetime Wrote:5) How do you square the holocaust?  If god is all good and powerful, and was everywhere during the holocaust, why did he not intervene?

The best answer I can give you would be similar to the the answer to question #4. I will ask you this why is it God's business to run the world? Is God suppose to intervene in a persons life that doesn't want Him to or, is He to allow life to continue as we make it and then be their for those who want His help to get through the mess we make of the world. If God was to act as the atheist here think He should the world would be seriously overpopulated, because nothing bad would ever happen, not even death. As we know death is the earthly penalty for sin.

Spacetime Wrote:6) I prayed that my boss's niece (6 years old) would not die of cancer... but she did.  Was it god that destroyed her family's lives by not answering their prayers or was it because Eve did an evil thing before she knew what evil was?

This is a leading question that is designed to give me no way out, but not to fear there's an answer that doesn't condemn God. Why should God listen to you a person who doesn't really believe, who doesn't trust His word (Bible). Yes the death of man is the result of Adam and Eve's disobedience, I find it funny you mention only Eve and I like how you tried to work in she didn't know she was doing wrong when the scriptures leave us with no doubt she knew she was doing wrong. Did she know what evil was, yes after her disobedience. If this family was praying to God and Christians they should have understood that the prayer might not be answered in the way they desired.

Spacetime Wrote:7) How can the Christian church deny marriage to someone with klinefelter syndrome?  Who decides what gender he or she is?  Does god hate people with klinefelter syndrome who marry?  Will they go to hell for marrying despite having two genders?

I've never heard of the Baptist Church refusing to marry a man with klinefelter syndrome. I can't answer for other denominations. From what I understand the gender is set as male. God hates no one, what He hates is people's sinful actions. Why would God hate a person who has klinefelter syndrome and marries some produce children and even more can when they receive treatments and like I said a person with klinefelter syndrome is classified as male. The only reason anyone goes to hell is for rejecting Christ, not because they were born a certain way. You should know this if you have studied the Bible as much as you've said.

Spacetime Wrote:8) Who is Enoch and what made him good in god's eyes?

Enoch was the son of Jared, Enoch was the father of Methuselah. Enoch we assume by what little scriptures tell us walked closely with God in a very special relationship. Does walk mean he physically walked with God, not necessarily, but it could have been if it was Jesus who appeared to people during the OT times. I'm not sure why you wanted to ask this question, I think the answer to this is an easily understood one by most that read the very short story.

Spacetime Wrote:9) What made rahab righteous?

Rahab was justified or righteous because she showed her faith that God would give over Jericho to the Israelites, she trusted that God would do what He had promised to Abraham all those years ago, she also did as the men from God had asked, showing more faith in God's ability to keep her family safe until after the city fell.. Works doesn't save anyone works shows what we believe, if one believes he/she will do God's work because they have real faith in Christ, they will want to do work. So if someone claims to be a Christian and never shows any evidence of being a Christian then a doubt should arise in people of faith.

Spacetime Wrote:10) What is your answer to the euthyphro dilemma?

I have no answer, because man can't define who God is, the men who discussed this were actually speaking concerning non existent gods. I should live my life according to Jesus example and teachings not man's thoughts. God says man will always disappoint each other because we are a selfish sort. Even in the discussion of a definition for piety there was selfish motives.

Sorry it took a while to answer these questions, you gave me several and I wanted to answer them all at one time.

GC

I predict this new approach is going to lead to false equivalences, which try and excuse God on the grounds that very limited and flawed humans, without his resources, do somewhat similar things to the horrible shit he does. I hope I'm wrong! We shall see.

With that in mind, the answer is no, I don't want laws that prohibit such things.

Also, what do you mean by homosexual behaviour? Do you mean sexual acts/physical affection between two people of the same gender? Because that doesn't mean either of them is homosexual.

Previous question: no, not at all acceptable.