(July 22, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: #2 is not a thinly veiled declaration of anything. It is a shout from the rooftops.

The disciples BELIEVED that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to them.

Whether he did not not is still up for discussion, but there is no doubt about the fact that they believed that they saw him alive.

["according to the story" -- Jorm, emphasis added]

(July 22, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Do you have any theories that explain this?

(July 15, 2015 at 3:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 9:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: 2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them

That Jesus rose and appeared to his disciples is a legend which developed between his death and the writing of the gospels.  Maybe it was even started by the disciples; people don't always think through the consequences of their actions.  It's not even clear that what might start out as a lie could not have come to be seen as the truth by some disciples; it's well within the range of normal human behavior.
That the disciples were martyred for their beliefs are either mistakes of interpretation (dying for something other than belief), or were legends which were added after the gospels were written.

C'mon, everybody:

This is the thread that never ends.
It goes on and on my friends.

Amusingly, but not surprisingly, mark, matty and luke...the last two being copied from mark...agree on almost all of the names of the so-called "disciples" but john is a lot more vague on jesus' little band of merry men.  He mentions only 7.

It's almost as if they made all of the shit up, isn't it?

I'm really looking forward to Hugo and Jake doing the NT in the bible reloaded, once they finally finish the Optional Testament. They say they're going to cover them in the order they were written, to show how the tale become more elaborate in detail with each retelling. This is exactly what you'd expect from vastly exaggerated stories.

(July 23, 2015 at 10:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(July 15, 2015 at 3:38 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: That Jesus rose and appeared to his disciples is a legend which developed between his death and the writing of the gospels.  Maybe it was even started by the disciples; people don't always think through the consequences of their actions.  It's not even clear that what might start out as a lie could not have come to be seen as the truth by some disciples; it's well within the range of normal human behavior.
That the disciples were martyred for their beliefs are either mistakes of interpretation (dying for something other than belief), or were legends which were added after the gospels were written.

So, your theory is that it is merely later legend that Jesus appeared to his disciples. Or possibly that the disciples made the whole thing up and conspired together. The disciples didn't actually die rather than recant or reveal their secret; that, too, is simply legend.

Correct?

If there is no jesus there are no disciples.  Who would they be following?

Like Robin Hood's Merry Men, they were invented later on to flesh out the story.

And there is no evidence of any "jesus" beyond the fairy tales in your holy horseshit.  Do try to remember that.

(July 24, 2015 at 6:31 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: So, your theory is that it is merely later legend that Jesus appeared to his disciples. Or possibly that the disciples made the whole thing up and conspired together. The disciples didn't actually die rather than recant or reveal their secret; that, too, is simply legend.

Correct?

The Church gathered together a committee of expert forgers who worked with expert Greek-speaking novelists fluent in 1st-century Hellenistic Jewish theology and geopolitics who then collaborated to create a series of fictional narratives within a fictional narrative before killing everyone involved so that the conspiracy would forever elude historians! 

(July 24, 2015 at 6:36 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(July 24, 2015 at 6:31 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: So, your theory is that it is merely later legend that Jesus appeared to his disciples. Or possibly that the disciples made the whole thing up and conspired together. The disciples didn't actually die rather than recant or reveal their secret; that, too, is simply legend.

Correct?

The Church gathered together a committee of expert forgers who worked with expert Greek-speaking novelists fluent in 1st-century Hellenistic Jewish theology and geopolitics who then collaborated to create a series of fictional narratives within a fictional narrative before killing everyone involved so that the conspiracy would forever elude historians! 

That works!

Except for a couple of plot threads that still seem loose... Why would Paul and James convert to Christianity before the book was finished?

And why have the empty tomb discovered by women instead of by one of the main characters? We're cool with it today, but no one would have listened to "women's tales" when the book came out....

(July 24, 2015 at 6:40 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 24, 2015 at 6:36 pm)Nestor Wrote: The Church gathered together a committee of expert forgers who worked with expert Greek-speaking novelists fluent in 1st-century Hellenistic Jewish theology and geopolitics who then collaborated to create a series of fictional narratives within a fictional narrative before killing everyone involved so that the conspiracy would forever elude historians! 

That works!

Except for a couple of plot threads that still seem loose? Why would Paul convert to Christianity before the book was finished? Or James?

They're just fictional characters that were dreamed up (and inserted into Josephus) to lend credibility to the Church's authority, which it of course derived from Peter rabbit! 

(July 24, 2015 at 6:44 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(July 24, 2015 at 6:40 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: That works!

Except for a couple of plot threads that still seem loose? Why would Paul convert to Christianity before the book was finished? Or James?

They're just fictional characters that were dreamed up (and inserted into Josephus) to lend credibility to the Church's authority, which it of course derived from Peter rabbit! 

Oh, of course. Well then another question: It makes sense that the production crew was all killed off once the book was out, but SOMEBODY knew the that the whole thing was a scam...yet Christians were martyred in large numbers for the first couple of hundred years so how did they escape getting caught up in the pogrom? And it wasn't until the fourth century until the book really took off in the Roman Empire, so none of the original perpetrators made a dime off of this. So, what was their motivation?