lkingpnl - thanks for the list.

I find the squid is a really good example of something that was at one time a myth spread by sea sailors, but now is a recognised species that has been filmed, and they have had their DNA sequenced.

I'm not sure how God is the same as I still see it as in the same bracket of ancient stories, much like the squid before decent evidence was acquired.

(July 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(July 29, 2015 at 9:36 am)lkingpinl Wrote: Well that is certainly a bold statement.  It is also untrue on many levels.  I can name plenty of theists who base their belief on logic and not emotion.  Also, saying that faith is illogical is to completely redefine the word faith.  The etymology of the word "faith" seems to have undergone a radical departure.  Faith comes from the latin "fide" for which we get "fidelity".  In Greek it is "pistis" from the verb "pietho" meaning to be persuaded.  When you say I have faith in my friend you are making a statement of truth and reality.  That he is a real person and someone you can trust.

No. Those theists THINK they have logical reasons. What they actually have is a series of logical fallacies with a wad of emotions tucked sneakily underneath.

And here is the impasse because the theist will argue the same for those holding an atheistic perspective.  There was another thread on here (trying to find it) about how people became an atheist and the vast majority was because of the church or the indoctrination, etc mostly emotion based reasons.  Our emotional preference has no bearing on what is true and real.

(July 29, 2015 at 9:00 am)FreeTony Wrote:

(July 28, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm 100% sure God exists, no doubts at all, the NT teaches that we can know God, I do.

GC

If you genuinely think that you can be 100% certain that something exists, then you are both arrogant and ridiculous in equal measures.

Good thing that's no more than an opinion.

GC

(July 29, 2015 at 10:55 am)lkingpinl Wrote:

(July 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: No. Those theists THINK they have logical reasons. What they actually have is a series of logical fallacies with a wad of emotions tucked sneakily underneath.

And here is the impasse because the theist will argue the same for those holding an atheistic perspective.  There was another thread on here (trying to find it) about how people became an atheist and the vast majority was because of the church or the indoctrination, etc mostly emotion based reasons.  Our emotional preference has no bearing on what is true and real.

That is the tu quoque fallacy. Asserting atheists are making the same mistake as you is not a defence of your position.

As for atheism, it's pretty simple, for me at least. There is barely a coherent definition, and there is zero credible evidence. I can be nothing other than unconvinced. Nothing to do with emotion, any more than disbelief in the tooth fairy. I can double down on it not being emotional, because I don't actually care either way. I'd make no changes to the way I live if any God was found to be real.

Every theistic argument I've ever seen contains at least one logical fallacy.

(July 29, 2015 at 4:43 am)robvalue Wrote: I find such certainty scary.

I'm not even 100% certain that I exist in the way I appear to. I'm not certain that I have any control over what I'm doing. I'm not certain that I'm not some self-aware viewing device.

I pity you.

GC

(July 29, 2015 at 4:20 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(July 28, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm 100% sure God exists, no doubts at all, the NT teaches that we can know God, I do.

GC

It also teaches to give up all your earthly possessions and beat your slaves properly. Missed that bit eh? -_-

No it doesn't, but you would read into scripture what you want it to say, want you?

GC

That's not the worst of if. My wife is taller than me!

(July 29, 2015 at 1:30 am)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(July 28, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm 100% sure God exists, no doubts at all, the NT teaches that we can know God, I do.

GC

Well there you go.  Thanks for settling that one.

You're welcome.

GC

(July 29, 2015 at 12:27 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(July 29, 2015 at 12:04 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Reality doesn't much care about my levels of certainty

It certainly the fuck does not; you're absolutely right, though probably not in the way you're thinking.

(July 28, 2015 at 11:49 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm 100% sure God exists, no doubts at all, the NT teaches that we can know God, I do.

GC

So? The Quran teaches that there is no Gaud but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet. Buddhism teaches that we can break the cycle of reincarnation by sitting perfectly still for long enough. The Lord of the Rings teaches that Gandalf sacrificed himself so that Frodo could carry the One Ring out of Morea. What's your fucking point?

Unlike you I know for sure.

GC

(July 29, 2015 at 10:55 am)lkingpinl Wrote:

(July 29, 2015 at 9:46 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: No. Those theists THINK they have logical reasons. What they actually have is a series of logical fallacies with a wad of emotions tucked sneakily underneath.

And here is the impasse because the theist will argue the same for those holding an atheistic perspective.  There was another thread on here (trying to find it) about how people became an atheist and the vast majority was because of the church or the indoctrination, etc mostly emotion based reasons.  Our emotional preference has no bearing on what is true and real.

In all honesty and seriousness, emotion had practically nothing to do with my de-conversion. I was at a comfortable, happy place in life, and there was no tumult going on that was making me angry or causing me to question. I stopped calling myself a christian for the same reason I stopped calling myself a Republican in college: the evidence added up until I was no longer able to logically or morally defend my position, so I realized my position needed to change based on the evidence at hand. For me, the final straw was when I tripped over convincing evidence of the Christ Myth theory. When I realized that the claims for historicity were based on such bad arguments and evidence, and then stepped back and realized that ALL of it is based on the same terrible arguments and evidence, I just couldn't do it any more. Logic is what de-converted me, not emotion. I can't speak for anyone else.

The simple fact is that regardless of which is actually true, atheism is logical, while theism is not. Until further evidence (of the empirical, peer-reviewable kind) surfaces, that is completely true. Even if some atheists are atheists because of emotional reasons, their position of belief is still more logically sound than any theist because theism is unreasonable and illogical.