(August 18, 2015 at 9:41 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(August 18, 2015 at 9:36 am)Stimbo Wrote: But... but David J Stewart says:


Now I don't know who to believe...

True. You don't.

The real question is: Are you willing to find out?

Of course I am. But that's not my job, is it? It's yours.

(August 18, 2015 at 9:31 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(August 18, 2015 at 9:27 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: Put your bagpipes away, Braveheart. This isn't Scotland, and you're no True Scotsman.

Can you point to any of the Early Church Fathers (available here) who taught anything remotely like the rapture?

"I'm an atheist, by gar, but if I wuz to believe again, I sure as heck wouldn't be no dang-nabbit Catholic 'cause that's not what we...I mean I...I mean them true Bible Christians believe."

Oh, and I do play the bagpipes, btw. Just sayin'.

There's no such thing as a True Christian, Randy. Catholics think they're the only True Christians, Protestants think they're the only True Christians, Jehovah's witnesses think they're the only True Christians, and Mormons think they're the only True Christians, too. They all have writings and humans extolling their True Christianity, and they all have roughly the same level of evidence to back them (which is to say not one bit). Catholics are not True Christians because there is no such thing.

First, I'm a little older than many of you, so I remember this:



Second, the Rapture is a theological novelty (and error) introduced in the 19th century:

"In the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history."[source]

(August 18, 2015 at 10:47 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 18, 2015 at 9:31 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Can you point to any of the Early Church Fathers (available here) who taught anything remotely like the rapture?

"I'm an atheist, by gar, but if I wuz to believe again, I sure as heck wouldn't be no dang-nabbit Catholic 'cause that's not what we...I mean I...I mean them true Bible Christians believe."

Oh, and I do play the bagpipes, btw. Just sayin'.

There's no such thing as a True Christian, Randy. Catholics think they're the only True Christians, Protestants think they're the only True Christians, Jehovah's witnesses think they're the only True Christians, and Mormons think they're the only True Christians, too. They all have writings and humans extolling their True Christianity, and they all have roughly the same level of evidence to back them (which is to say not one bit). Catholics are not True Christians because there is no such thing.

Geez, I'm arguing with an atheist about the errors of Protestantism. Weird.

Anyway, yeah, there is a true Church, and your former congregation ain't it. My argument for Catholicism runs like this (better get out your Bible and take off your atheist hat for just a moment, okay?):

Peter – The Royal Steward

Here are two questions that need to be answered:

1. Is Jesus a king?
2. Did He re-establish the office of the Royal Steward?

In your former life, Redbeard, you probably would have said “Yes” quickly to the first question, but you may have hesitated or even answered “No” to the second. Let’s take a look at what scripture and history tell us about the office of the Royal Steward.

In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command (known as the royal steward or prime minister) who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. The prophet Isaiah confirms this:

Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

In the passage above, God is speaking to Shebnah, an unfaithful steward serving King Hezekiah. God is telling Shebnah that he is about to be replaced by Eliakim, and this confirms the existence of the office, the key worn as a symbol of the office, and the continuation of the office in perpetuity -- despite the change of office holder. In other words, the office of the royal steward continued even when the man who held the office died or was replaced by someone else. God Himself passes the key from one steward to the next.

In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus inherits the throne of his father, David.

Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.

We also read the following:

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The passage quoted above from Matthew tells us that Jesus named Peter as His royal steward and gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven" as the symbol of his authority to speak in His name. Since Jesus is an eternal king, the office of royal steward in His kingdom will never end. Peter died as a martyr as Jesus foretold, but the successors of Peter have taken his place in the perpetual office that Jesus established in His royal court.

In addition to the reference to a key or keys, note the following parallels:

"What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Is. 22:22)
"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt. 16:19)

Jesus specifically referenced the passage from Isaiah when He appointed Peter to the office of Royal Steward granting him the authority to speak universally in His name. To do so faithfully, Peter could not teach error. God’s protection of His own flock by preventing the formal teaching of error in His name is referred to as “infallibility”.

Therefore, if Jesus, our eternal king, established Peter as His first Royal Steward in a perpetual office, then don't Peter's successors, the Bishops of Rome, continue to serve in that office today?

Braveheart. Your bagpipes. Dispense with them. Your fallacy is not a True Scotsman no matter how many Wholly Babble verses you plaster on the screen.

Anybody ever notice that it's called "apologetics," and yet they never seem to actually apologize for anything?

(August 19, 2015 at 12:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote:

(August 18, 2015 at 10:47 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: There's no such thing as a True Christian, Randy. Catholics think they're the only True Christians, Protestants think they're the only True Christians, Jehovah's witnesses think they're the only True Christians, and Mormons think they're the only True Christians, too. They all have writings and humans extolling their True Christianity, and they all have roughly the same level of evidence to back them (which is to say not one bit). Catholics are not True Christians because there is no such thing.

Geez, I'm arguing with an atheist about the errors of Protestantism. Weird.

Anyway, yeah, there is a true Church, and your former congregation ain't it. My argument for Catholicism runs like this (better get out your Bible and take off your atheist hat for just a moment, okay?):

Peter – The Royal Steward

Here are two questions that need to be answered:

1. Is Jesus a king?
2. Did He re-establish the office of the Royal Steward?

In your former life, Redbeard, you probably would have said “Yes” quickly to the first question, but you may have hesitated or even answered “No” to the second. Let’s take a look at what scripture and history tell us about the office of the Royal Steward.

In ancient times, a king might choose a second in command (known as the royal steward or prime minister) who literally wore a large key as a symbol of his office and who spoke with the authority of the king. The prophet Isaiah confirms this:

Isaiah 22:20-22
"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.”

In the passage above, God is speaking to Shebnah, an unfaithful steward serving King Hezekiah. God is telling Shebnah that he is about to be replaced by Eliakim, and this confirms the existence of the office, the key worn as a symbol of the office, and the continuation of the office in perpetuity -- despite the change of office holder. In other words, the office of the royal steward continued even when the man who held the office died or was replaced by someone else. God Himself passes the key from one steward to the next.

In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus inherits the throne of his father, David.

Luke 1:31–33
And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.

We also read the following:

Matthew 16:13-19
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The passage quoted above from Matthew tells us that Jesus named Peter as His royal steward and gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven" as the symbol of his authority to speak in His name. Since Jesus is an eternal king, the office of royal steward in His kingdom will never end. Peter died as a martyr as Jesus foretold, but the successors of Peter have taken his place in the perpetual office that Jesus established in His royal court.

In addition to the reference to a key or keys, note the following parallels:

"What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.” (Is. 22:22)
"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” (Mt. 16:19)

Jesus specifically referenced the passage from Isaiah when He appointed Peter to the office of Royal Steward granting him the authority to speak universally in His name. To do so faithfully, Peter could not teach error. God’s protection of His own flock by preventing the formal teaching of error in His name is referred to as “infallibility”.

Therefore, if Jesus, our eternal king, established Peter as His first Royal Steward in a perpetual office, then don't Peter's successors, the Bishops of Rome, continue to serve in that office today?

You've already posted that.   http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=918231

Got anything new since then?

I can't imagine the Rapture is going to happen next month. I mean, there simply isn't going to be enough time for your Mr Obama to take away all the guns and herd everyone into concentration camps.

Boru

(August 19, 2015 at 12:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote: [...]
Therefore, if Jesus, our eternal king, established Peter as His first Royal Steward in a perpetual office, then don't Peter's successors, the Bishops of Rome, continue to serve in that office today?

Oh, wow. You have such "undeniable" arguments - why don't you go and tell the protestants? They actually believe in all that sh*t in the bible, so why would they reject the catholic interpretation?

Are you saying they're all stupid? Well - in that case, you know how we feel about you and your brand of delusion...

He' already here and I didn't realise it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pictureg...nated.html


He's got a throne



A rather nifty scooter


A special salute


And enjoys the occasional public blowjob

Can't fault him for that. The second coming won't happen by itself.