(August 22, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote: You may have read "mistranslated," but I meant what I said, "reinterpreted" though occasionally as in the example of translating the word young woman as virgin, mistranslated in the process.

That is not mistranslated.
the actual Hebrew text.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/study/isaiah/7.htm

if you mouse-over the word you will see that the Hebrew word for "young woman" is "Almah".

Quote:almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Short Definition: maidens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

Quote:Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be an unmarried virgin or a married young woman.[1] The term occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible – see usage below.

I suppose I don't have to tell you that it was against Hebrew law for an unmarried young woman to conceive a child sexually. So if your position is that God's sign was actually having a married woman conceive... what kind of sense does that make? married women conceive all the time.

(August 22, 2015 at 10:30 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

Quote:

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9 “Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself. You are to eat it during the 390 days you lie on your side. 10 Weigh out twenty shekels[b] of food to eat each day and eat it at set times. 11 Also measure out a sixth of a hin[c] of water and drink it at set times. 12 Eat the food as you would a loaf of barley bread; bake it in the sight of the people, using human excrement for fuel.” 13 The Lord said, “In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them.”
14 Then I said, “Not so, Sovereign Lord! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No impure meat has ever entered my mouth.”
15 “Very well,” he said, “I will let you bake your bread over cow dung instead of human excrement.”

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Quote:So Ezekiel "backsassed" god and god gave in... Yep.. sounds just like the god of the christians..9

The God character was simply the emperor.  Can you figure out which guy it was?  

So there's this huge universe with zillions of celestial objects in it and the invisible celestial deity shows up on this tiny speck and gives a guy a recipe and tells him to cook it over flaming crap.  When you think about it that's a good business opportunity.  A chain of restaurants featuring meals based upon deities' favorite food items.  It should be a hit with all of the religious nuts, especially the ones cooked over human crap-fueled fires.

Do the snake handler's also eat scrolls??

(August 22, 2015 at 11:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(August 22, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote: You may have read "mistranslated," but I meant what I said, "reinterpreted" though occasionally as in the example of translating the word young woman as virgin, mistranslated in the process.

That is not mistranslated.
the actual Hebrew text.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/study/isaiah/7.htm

if you mouse-over the word you will see that the Hebrew word for "young woman" is "Almah".

Quote:almah: a young woman, a virgin
Original Word: עַלְמָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: almah
Phonetic Spelling: (al-maw')
Short Definition: maidens

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

Quote:Almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew word meaning a young woman of childbearing age who has not yet had a child, and who may be an unmarried virgin or a married young woman.[1] The term occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible – see usage below.

I suppose I don't have to tell you that it was against Hebrew law for an unmarried young woman to conceive a child sexually. So if your position is that God's sign was actually having a married woman conceive... what kind of sense does that make? married women conceive all the time.

I am assuming you mean this:

Quote: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. 15 He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on your ancestral house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah—the king of Assyria.”

Isaiah 7:14-17 NRSV

Even if you translate "young woman" as virgin, it's not a prediction of Jesus.  Look at the tense.  The young woman "is" with child.  And the sign is not that she will give birth, but what will happen before her son is of age.  It is a prophecy that was (according to the OT) already fulfilled before Jesus was ever born.  And it was given to a Ahaz:

Quote:Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test. 13 Then Isaiah said: “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.

Isaiah 7:10-13 NRSV

And it is about Ahaz's then current conflict with the Kings of Aram and Israel.

Quote:In the days of Ahaz son of Jotham son of Uzziah, king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and King Pekah son of Remaliah of Israel went up to attack Jerusalem, but could not mount an attack against it. 2 When the house of David heard that Aram had allied itself with Ephraim, the heart of Ahaz and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind.

 Isaiah 7:1-4.  NRSV

Where any future virgin comes in is beyond me.   But Christians claim all sorts of things about it including that it's "double" prophecy meant to be fulfilled twice.  If that isn't a reinterpretation of what is plainly meant in the OT, I don't know what is.

Do you want to talk about Jacob and Jesus, or is that not your particular reinterpretation?

Read that passage again closely, Isaiah is not addressing Ahaz in that prophecy, Ahaz clearly stated he wouldn't ask for a sign.

Quote:Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.

Isaiah then specifically addresses the house of David.

Quote:13 Then Isaiah said: “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.

Showing that this sign was for the lineage of David. It's no coincidence that this "virgin" belonged to the house of David.

Quote:Zechariah 13
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Was not Jesus this fountain?

(August 22, 2015 at 11:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Do you want to talk about Jacob and Jesus, or is that not your particular reinterpretation?

I don't believe Jacob wrestled Jesus, if that's what you're getting at.

(August 23, 2015 at 12:43 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

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(August 22, 2015 at 11:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I am assuming you mean this:

Isaiah 7:14-17 NRSV

Even if you translate "young woman" as virgin, it's not a prediction of Jesus.  Look at the tense.  The young woman "is" with child.  And the sign is not that she will give birth, but what will happen before her son is of age.  It is a prophecy that was (according to the OT) already fulfilled before Jesus was ever born.  And it was given to a Ahaz:

Isaiah 7:10-13 NRSV

And it is about Ahaz's then current conflict with the Kings of Aram and Israel.

 Isaiah 7:1-4.  NRSV

Where any future virgin comes in is beyond me.   But Christians claim all sorts of things about it including that it's "double" prophecy meant to be fulfilled twice.  If that isn't a reinterpretation of what is plainly meant in the OT, I don't know what is.

---

Read that passage again closely, Isaiah is not addressing Ahaz in that prophecy, Ahaz clearly stated he wouldn't ask for a sign.

Quote:Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.

Isaiah then specifically addresses the house of David.

Quote:13 Then Isaiah said: “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.

Showing that this sign was for the lineage of David. It's no coincidence that this "virgin" belonged to the house of David.

Quote:Zechariah 13
13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Was not Jesus this fountain?

(August 22, 2015 at 11:55 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Do you want to talk about Jacob and Jesus, or is that not your particular reinterpretation?

I don't believe Jacob wrestled Jesus, if that's what you're getting at.

*edit*

I should address your comment about double prophecy, which does exist, for instance.

Quote:Matthew 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day

Jesus is addressing Capernaum, but this prophecy can also be applied to Los Angeles, a city which also exalts itself unto heaven (city of angels). It's only a matter of time before it's covered in water.

Quote: I suppose I don't have to tell you that it was against Hebrew law for an unmarried young woman to conceive a child sexually.

Was there another way?  Aside from the 'finger of god' bullshit, that is.

(August 22, 2015 at 10:30 pm)Brakeman Wrote:

Quote:15 “Very well,” he said, “I will let you bake your bread over cow dung instead of human excrement.”

So Ezekiel "backsassed" god and god gave in... Yep.. sounds just like the god of the christians..

So huggy addresses the theological opines of the translations of a jewish word for girl, but dodges like hell the obvious stupidity of his god thinking up an idea to cook meals over burning human shit.

I bet he's really good at dodgeball.

(August 22, 2015 at 9:55 pm)Brakeman Wrote: According to Christian's "Great Big Book 'O Crazy"

Quote: Ezekiel 3New International Version (NIV)
3 And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel.” 2 So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat.
3 Then he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it.” So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.
4 He then said to me: “Son of man, go now to the people of Israel and speak my words to them. 5 You are not being sent to a people of obscure speech and strange language, but to the people of Israel— 6 not to many peoples of obscure speech and strange language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely if I had sent you to them, they would have listened to you. 7 But the people of Israel are not willing to listen to you because they are not willing to listen to me, for all the Israelites are hardened and obstinate. 8 But I will make you as unyielding and hardened as they are. 9 I will make your forehead like the hardest stone, harder than flint. Do not be afraid of them or terrified by them, though they are a rebellious people.”

Well, of course this is completely stupid and only taken seriously by completely stupid people, but there are certain christians on here who definitely have the flint-like hardened head.

 Well, well no surprise that you can't see these words as they are meant, it doesn't mean your stupid, it means you are just the same as the Israelis referred to in the passages, yes it means you want listen to God and as He says you've hardened your heart and are an obstinate fellow because you've chosen to be.

GC

(August 22, 2015 at 10:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote:  I forget which Christian here startled me by suggesting that Jacob wrestled with Jesus, but it was pretty recent here on the forum.

 That would be me, now instead of saying you are startled prove me wrong.

GC