(August 24, 2015 at 9:29 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 1:11 am)Ayen Wrote: The rebellion that started from a woman who didn't know right from wrong because God put a tree he didn't want them to eat right where they could eat it and told them not to? Did he not know parenting 101? Tell a child not to do something and they're more likely to do it. Then he acts surprise when they do it when they don't know any better, oh and they didn't die like he said they would, either, so God's a liar to boot. And if you subscribe to the 'Snake = Satan' theory, not only does God have horrible security, but he's an idiot too for punishing snakes on a whole for something the devil did.

Yeah, makes sense. We better repent, guys.

She did know right from wrong, her husband Adam, imparted God's command about the trees which she restated to the snake in the garden. She knew what she should have done and what she should not have done. Also God was not surprised nor was He a liar. Adam and Eve died spiritually and then died physically. Also they could have easily call for God to come ( it is not like he didn't know what was going on)  instead they choose to entertain the devil. You have misrepresented the story in Genesis I am not sure if this was on purpose or not, but that is why you are making the errors that you have.

Also God is not judging you for the sins Adam and Eve committed but the wrong you have committed against Him. He is trying to redeem you because He believes you are worth the sacrifice. He values your life and existence and wants you live in truth. That is why He is calling you to repent.

What they ate from was called the 'Tree of Forbidden Knowledge of Good and Evil.' Meaning that before they ate this they didn't know what good and evil were. They didn't know until AFTER they ate of said tree. Furthermore, God did not say, "Eat and your spirit will die." He simply said, "You will die," with no further explanation. Eve was reciting what she was told, and since you do subscribe to the snake = Satan belief, explain to me why God punished snakes at all. They had feet, and now they don't because they were framed by the devil. God's justice is a little skewered there.

I'm a man who sweats, and according to the bible sweat was a punishment to Adam after he disobeyed. All women now feel pain in childbirth because Eve ate a fruit. Yes, according to your book, he IS judging us for their sins. He's punishing an entire species for the act of two people and a devil snake. It's right there in black and white.

All of this could have been avoided with one simple act: DON'T PUT THE FUCKING TREE THERE!

God had to justify to himself the immense cruelty he had planned for his creation. So he set them up to instantly fail.

Back in reality, none of this happened. There was no Adam and Eve. There was no "tree of ultimate deciding whether or not you know good and evil and the difference between them and all the important information you need to make informed decisions yet I'm expecting you to make one without this information".

Science is hard. Learning is hard. What would be even harder for me personally though would be saying, "Shit, this is complicated. I don't fully understand it. So it was magic instead. I'm done learning things."

(August 24, 2015 at 11:08 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 9:16 am)Rekeisha Wrote: Since you didn't state a person are you saying that you use your own reasoning as your authority? Or is it Chris who upkeeps the evil bible web-page?

Some of your argument were addressed by me in earlier post. You either didn't read them or out right rejected them because you deemed my were full of Christian propaganda.

Science is nice and very helpful but God is beyond nature and can alter his creation in mundane and miraculous ways. You have closed your mind to anything that isn't scientifically explained. So you make many errors when it comes to what is reality.

I know you will correct me if I am wrong but you believe that we are just the happenstance of the universe. We have just evolved by chance to be humans. Then you make a statement about how evil God is. Be honest in your world view there is not evil. There is just atoms bumping into atoms. You have no worth and I have no worth. If you give yourself worth it is just arbitrary. In my world view I can say what is evil and what isn't because people have intrinsic value given to me by God our creator. He has spoken and is still speaking and has the ability to alter His creation. He is calling people to Himself because he loves them. He seek to make people whole and heal them and He is not the evil one.

Let's be clear, here. The "authority" I'm referencing is material reality as we (humans) know it. The "authority" you're referencing is not a person or a deity, but a piece of contrived Bronze/Iron Age mythology that you've been indoctrinated into believing is the truth. My authority is the concentrated human knowledge of the modern age, whereas yours is an outdated fiction produced by humans of a primitive, scientifically ignorant age.


Miraculous powers is not the reason Gaud breaks science in the Wholly Babble. The reason Gaud breaks science in the Babble is that he obviously doesn't know it, hence whoever wrote it was not omniscient, hence the source was probably human and not an omniscient being. It's not just the magical stuff he does; the actual model for the Universe and the Solar System are nothing like what's described in the Bible, and that's just the beginning.


Now, strictly speaking, I'm not saying Gaud is evil. Gaud does not exist. What I'm saying is that if the narrative in the Babble were actually true (which it is NOT; this is hypothetical), then the Gaud it depicts would be completely evil with cruel, arbitrary morality that ignores its own standards and debases life in the most fundamental and atrocious of ways. In other words, your imaginary friend is a sick fuck.


Honestly, the happenstance of our existence is exactly what makes it worth so much. You realize you could have been any other being, right? The odds against your existence and my existence, are astronomical. When you consider the sheer number of potential gametes that could have united, the sheer number of parents we could have been born to, the sheer number of everything else involved in the series of causes and effects that brought us into being, out of all of those odds...we emerged. We are alive. We have the capacity to experience the world around us for a time, and we were born in an age where knowledge and comfort are much easier to come by than in years past. The world might not be a paradise, but when you consider the monumentally astronomical odds under which we came to live and survive in the world we live in right now, it's honestly kind of awe-inspiring. This one existence we have is a precious gift, given to us by no one, that no one but us can decide how to use. The fact that our time is limited and the only time we have makes it worth more, not less, because it means we should be striving to make the most out of THIS existence instead of striving for some perfect afterlife. My life and the lives of other humans are worth far more to me than they are to your supposed Gaud, who kills man, beast, and plant on a whim and sends most of his creation to Hell in the end.

I apologize I was unclear I wanted to know what human authority you were basing your statements off of.
The Bible is not a science text book and when God was speaking to the Hebrews He was speaking to them in ways that they would understand. If God explained how he created the universe you wouldn't even understand it.

Still wither your comment is hypothetical or not you can't make this argument because your world view does not support it. Even if being alive is against the odds that is not a good enough reason. An oddity does not give a thing worth or else we would celebrate every thing that is highly unlikely to happen as a good thing. Whenever you claim anything is evil or good you are being inconsistent and borrowing from my world view. Why would a living thing have more worth than a non living thing? It all started the same and it is still made up of atoms. There is nothing in your world view that can unequivocally give a person, an animal or our planet any worth. It is all just atoms banging against each other. Yes the odds are amazing way too amazing to not think that someone isn't tinkering with things. If I am playing poker with you and every hand I get is full of aces you would think I had rigged the game. Yet when it comes to the universe you leave it up to happenstance. People have worth more than just the fact that we can experience life because you have the finger print of the God of creation on you. You bear the image of the living God and that God deemed it worth while to set aside all of His right to make you right with Him by dieing on the cross for your sins. He could have destroyed everything and not allowed this very moment to happen but He didn't. He though that you are worth this moment. He will right every wrong one way or another but He enjoys giving mercy without sacrificing His justice. Life is even more rich in the presence of God. I don't need to strive for the after life either I can live not with God and the rest of eternity for God. If I live it is for the Glory of God and if I die I get to see even more fully the beauty and mystery of the God of glory. My life is good and my death is good because my death ushers me fully into the presences of God and all of those who love Him. It will be fantastic and something I am looking forward to but not trying to rush because I am willing to wait for God's timing.

(August 24, 2015 at 11:28 am)Thena323 Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 9:29 am)Rekeisha Wrote: She did know right from wrong, her husband Adam, imparted God's command about the trees which she restated to the snake in the garden. She knew what she should have done and what she should not have done. Also God was not surprised nor was He a liar. Adam and Eve died spiritually and then died physically. Also they could have easily call for God to come ( it is not like he didn't know what was going on)  instead they choose to entertain the devil. You have misrepresented the story in Genesis I am not sure if this was on purpose or not, but that is why you are making the errors that you have.

Also God is not judging you for the sins Adam and Eve committed but the wrong you have committed against Him. He is trying to redeem you because He believes you are worth the sacrifice. He values your life and existence and wants you live in truth. That is why He is calling you to repent.

Do you ever pause and think "Wow. All of this sounds crazy when I say it out loud. I'm an adult and believe in magical stories of invisible men, talking animals, and superpowers?" I'm not saying that you are, but are you aware that you sound like a lunatic? You talk about this stuff as if it's perfectly normal and healthy to believe that acts of supernatural magical just occur constantly.

I know what it sounds like to you but that doesn't make it wrong.

(August 24, 2015 at 1:53 pm)Ayen Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 9:29 am)Rekeisha Wrote: She did know right from wrong, her husband Adam, imparted God's command about the trees which she restated to the snake in the garden. She knew what she should have done and what she should not have done. Also God was not surprised nor was He a liar. Adam and Eve died spiritually and then died physically. Also they could have easily call for God to come ( it is not like he didn't know what was going on)  instead they choose to entertain the devil. You have misrepresented the story in Genesis I am not sure if this was on purpose or not, but that is why you are making the errors that you have.

Also God is not judging you for the sins Adam and Eve committed but the wrong you have committed against Him. He is trying to redeem you because He believes you are worth the sacrifice. He values your life and existence and wants you live in truth. That is why He is calling you to repent.

What they ate from was called the 'Tree of Forbidden Knowledge of Good and Evil.' Meaning that before they ate this they didn't know what good and evil were. They didn't know until AFTER they ate of said tree. Furthermore, God did not say, "Eat and your spirit will die." He simply said, "You will die," with no further explanation. Eve was reciting what she was told, and since you do subscribe to the snake = Satan belief, explain to me why God punished snakes at all. They had feet, and now they don't because they were framed by the devil. God's justice is a little skewered there.

I'm a man who sweats, and according to the bible sweat was a punishment to Adam after he disobeyed. All women now feel pain in childbirth because Eve ate a fruit. Yes, according to your book, he IS judging us for their sins. He's punishing an entire species for the act of two people and a devil snake. It's right there in black and white.

All of this could have been avoided with one simple act: DON'T PUT THE FUCKING TREE THERE!

Gen 3:8 The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed. 9 The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So it is the knowledge of Good and evil but that doesn't mean she didn't know what she should not do and what she should do. Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. 3 But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’”
Her last part was an addition God didn't say that you would surly die if you ate it. She could have ask God and her husband was right there so he could have said something too.
Gen 2:16...“You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”

It doesn't matter wither God said spiritual or physical, they wouldn't have understood what death was anyway, they should have just obeyed.  I don't explain everything to my children some things they can't fully understand. If I don't want them doing something harmful I don't need to explain all of the details I just need them to obey.
Adam and Eve had the entire garden to eat from yet the one tree and the only one negative command they had was don't eat from the tree of good and evil. God was giving them a chance to obey or disobey. To choose to trust him or distrust. God says if you obey His commands you love Him and it is only by faith that you can please Him and are justified. We have this choice and our choices do effect our children. We don't sin in a vacuum. Our decision will do harm or bless others. Their decision ruined themselves and their children. They allowed a spiritual sickness to invade all of humanity. Still God had a plan to redeem us through His own sacrifice on the cross so that whoever puts their trust in Him repents and accepts His death on the cross can be brought back into a right relationship with God. The curses were just a sign to us all that something isn't right and we need to be fixed.

As for the snake not totally clear on that but I do know that it is a metaphor. Every time Adam's decedents would see the snake they would have been reminded that they had lost something because of sin and they would also know that God had given them a promise to defeat the snake. If you look in the Bible you see the snake throughout scripture as a sign of sin/Satan and God's promise to defeat the snake at the same time.

(August 25, 2015 at 8:28 am)Rekeisha Wrote: I apologize I was unclear I wanted to know what human authority you were basing your statements off of.
The Bible is not a science text book and when God was speaking to the Hebrews He was speaking to them in ways that they would understand. If God explained how he created the universe you wouldn't even understand it.

I'm vaguely aware of what you're trying to trick me into saying and what line of argument you intend to employ if you succeed, but the problem is that what you're trying to get me to say isn't actually true, so it's not likely that I'm going to say it. I do not have a "human authority" for what I'm saying, nor a divine one. My statements are based on objective reality and truth as displayed by evidence. My knowledge and understanding of that evidence will always be limited by my perception and mental capacity, but the simple fact is that my beliefs and claims are not based on anyone's authority, they are based on objective reality as it demonstrably exists.


There is no reason to believe that a perfect, omniscient Gaud could not have convinced ancient peoples to understand and believe science. They believe every other word that's claimed to fall out of his face-hole, so why wouldn't they believe that the Earth is billions of years old and everything is made up of tiny particles?

Quote:Still wither your comment is hypothetical or not you can't make this argument because your world view does not support it. Even if being alive is against the odds that is not a good enough reason. An oddity does not give a thing worth or else we would celebrate every thing that is highly unlikely to happen as a good thing. Whenever you claim anything is evil or good you are being inconsistent and borrowing from my world view. Why would a living thing have more worth than a non living thing? It all started the same and it is still made up of atoms. There is nothing in your world view that can unequivocally give a person, an animal or our planet any worth. It is all just atoms banging against each other. Yes the odds are amazing way too amazing to not think that someone isn't tinkering with things. If I am playing poker with you and every hand I get is full of aces you would think I had rigged the game. Yet when it comes to the universe you leave it up to happenstance. People have worth more than just the fact that we can experience life because you have the finger print of the God of creation on you. You bear the image of the living God and that God deemed it worth while to set aside all of His right to make you right with Him by dieing on the cross for your sins. He could have destroyed everything and not allowed this very moment to happen but He didn't. He though that you are worth this moment. He will right every wrong one way or another but He enjoys giving mercy without sacrificing His justice. Life is even more rich in the presence of God. I don't need to strive for the after life either I can live not with God and the rest of eternity for God. If I live it is for the Glory of God and if I die I get to see even more fully the beauty and mystery of the God of glory. My life is good and my death is good because my death ushers me fully into the presences of God and all of those who love Him. It will be fantastic and something I am looking forward to but not trying to rush because I am willing to wait for God's timing.

Kindly refrain from telling me what arguments I can make from my world view when you still obviously don't understand my world view or the actual argument I made.


Rarity isn't the only reason life is precious, and it's not the only reason I gave. The actual reason it's precious to us as individuals (as I already stated) is that it is by far the most valuable resource any of us has. We each get one life and only one, and the minutes in it are finite. Once it runs out, that's it. That means all that any of us really has is this exact moment and the memories of the moments that have come before. Those moments are your life. You owe it to yourself to make as many of those moments as good as possible, and you owe it to others to not stop them from doing the same. That's the basis of my morality and the value of my life; I recognize that this life is the only one I get, and so it stands to reason I should take care of it and make it as good as possible and allow others to do the same.


As I've laboriously stated in previous posts (and yet you still fail to understand), good and evil are human concepts to describe categories of ideas and experiences. I did not borrow them from your stupid religion. Your religion borrowed the idea from the rest of human history, among whom the ideas of good and evil existed for probably thousands of years before the early stages of your little cult even started forming. Even animals have a rudimentary understanding of the concepts that suffering and death are bad while pleasure and health are good. It does not take higher understanding to make use of these concepts. Good and evil are simply evolved forms of these basic animal thought processes.


The simple truth is that I've already wasted too many of the precious moments of my life praying, attending church, and giving money to charlatans and sheeple, and damaging relationships and potential relationships with the constraints of a backward world view, and I do not intend to waste any more of them in like fashion. I'm glad I rid myself of faith early enough to enjoy the remaining two thirds or so of my life without the delusion, suffering, and drain on my resources that religion used to produce in my life. Simply put: I'm worth too much to be religious. So are you.

(August 25, 2015 at 2:18 am)robvalue Wrote: God had to justify to himself the immense cruelty he had planned for his creation. So he set them up to instantly fail.

Back in reality, none of this happened. There was no Adam and Eve. There was no "tree of ultimate deciding whether or not you know good and evil and the difference between them and all the important information you need to make informed decisions yet I'm expecting you to make one without this information".

Science is hard. Learning is hard. What would be even harder for me personally though would be saying, "Shit, this is complicated. I don't fully understand it. So it was magic instead. I'm done learning things."

Again your world view does not support cruelty we are just atom bumping up against each other. I know you find it difficult to understand how the things in the Bible could happen because you refuse to accept the Supernatural and you don't want to know God. Humility is hard (I know from experience). To say that you are not the ultimate authority over your own life is difficult. In some ways I see that it is easier to just wish sin away the problem is that you will have to pay for your actions in the end. It is easier to live in denial of the truth and not have to face the facts, but that kind of life always comes crashing down. God does not want that for you. He doesn't need to justify Himself there is no one who has authority over Him. He doesn't need to save anyone He is in the right. There is nothing in this universe He needs. You do need to be justified because you refuse to recognize your sin against a holy and perfect God. Your rejection of the truth will not save you and in God's mercy He is giving you an opportunity to know Him, the God of all creation. To be made right through His grace. He paid the way to make you right and holds out His hand so that you can experience something truly amazing. The God of the universe wants you to know Him. This isn't magic this is amazing grace! You know that this universe is amazing how about knowing the one who made it!

(August 25, 2015 at 9:24 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

(August 25, 2015 at 2:18 am)robvalue Wrote: God had to justify to himself the immense cruelty he had planned for his creation. So he set them up to instantly fail.

Back in reality, none of this happened. There was no Adam and Eve. There was no "tree of ultimate deciding whether or not you know good and evil and the difference between them and all the important information you need to make informed decisions yet I'm expecting you to make one without this information".

Science is hard. Learning is hard. What would be even harder for me personally though would be saying, "Shit, this is complicated. I don't fully understand it. So it was magic instead. I'm done learning things."

Again your world view does not support cruelty we are just atom bumping up against each other. I know you find it difficult to understand how the things in the Bible could happen because you refuse to accept the Supernatural and you don't want to know God. Humility is hard (I know from experience). To say that you are not the ultimate authority over your own life is difficult. In some ways I see that it is easier to just wish sin away the problem is that you will have to pay for your actions in the end. It is easier to live in denial of the truth and not have to face the facts, but that kind of life always comes crashing down. God does not want that for you. He doesn't need to justify Himself there is no one who has authority over Him. He doesn't need to save anyone He is in the right. There is nothing in this universe He needs. You do need to be justified because you refuse to recognize your sin against a holy and perfect God. Your rejection of the truth will not save you and in God's mercy He is giving you an opportunity to know Him, the God of all creation. To be made right through His grace. He paid the way to make you right and holds out His hand so that you can experience something truly amazing. The God of the universe wants you to know Him. This isn't magic this is amazing grace! You know that this universe is amazing how about knowing the one who made it!

I think for every post where you straw-man my or someone else's world view, I'm just gonna reduce my whole argument to "stop straw-manning people's world view, you fuck." It's reached that stage of irritating. You need to stop fucking doing this.

We are not just "atoms bumping into each other," and neither Rob nor I has ever said that. Yes, we're made of atoms, but those atoms are clustered into a being that can think, feel, and act. Things exist on levels of complexity above the atomic level, hence the existence of molecules, compounds, and eventually complex beings. You are straw-manning us. Stop straw-manning people's world view, you fuck.

(August 25, 2015 at 9:10 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 1:53 pm)Ayen Wrote: What they ate from was called the 'Tree of Forbidden Knowledge of Good and Evil.' Meaning that before they ate this they didn't know what good and evil were. They didn't know until AFTER they ate of said tree. Furthermore, God did not say, "Eat and your spirit will die." He simply said, "You will die," with no further explanation. Eve was reciting what she was told, and since you do subscribe to the snake = Satan belief, explain to me why God punished snakes at all. They had feet, and now they don't because they were framed by the devil. God's justice is a little skewered there.

I'm a man who sweats, and according to the bible sweat was a punishment to Adam after he disobeyed. All women now feel pain in childbirth because Eve ate a fruit. Yes, according to your book, he IS judging us for their sins. He's punishing an entire species for the act of two people and a devil snake. It's right there in black and white.

All of this could have been avoided with one simple act: DON'T PUT THE FUCKING TREE THERE!

Gen 3:8 The Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there He placed the man He had formed. 9 The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the middle of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So it is the knowledge of Good and evil but that doesn't mean she didn't know what she should not do and what she should do. Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. 3 But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’”
Her last part was an addition God didn't say that you would surly die if you ate it. She could have ask God and her husband was right there so he could have said something too.
Gen 2:16...“You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”

It doesn't matter wither God said spiritual or physical, they wouldn't have understood what death was anyway, they should have just obeyed.  I don't explain everything to my children some things they can't fully understand. If I don't want them doing something harmful I don't need to explain all of the details I just need them to obey.
Adam and Eve had the entire garden to eat from yet the one tree and the only one negative command they had was don't eat from the tree of good and evil. God was giving them a chance to obey or disobey. To choose to trust him or distrust. God says if you obey His commands you love Him and it is only by faith that you can please Him and are justified. We have this choice and our choices do effect our children. We don't sin in a vacuum. Our decision will do harm or bless others. Their decision ruined themselves and their children. They allowed a spiritual sickness to invade all of humanity. Still God had a plan to redeem us through His own sacrifice on the cross so that whoever puts their trust in Him repents and accepts His death on the cross can be brought back into a right relationship with God. The curses were just a sign to us all that something isn't right and we need to be fixed.

As for the snake not totally clear on that but I do know that it is a metaphor. Every time Adam's decedents would see the snake they would have been reminded that they had lost something because of sin and they would also know that God had given them a promise to defeat the snake. If you look in the Bible you see the snake throughout scripture as a sign of sin/Satan and God's promise to defeat the snake at the same time.

When your kids disobey do you kick them out of the house with nothing but the clothes on their back?
Do you put the thing that's harmful somewhere where they can get to it when you're not there?

I'm going to assume no, because any parent that did would be a neglectful piece of shit. Choice? What choice? If God knows everything then we have no choice, and there isn't much choice between, "Do what I tell you, or you're going to hell," which is the whole basis of Christianity and why you need to follow Jesus in the first place. That doesn't even get into why he needs to go through the whole 'Jesus' ordeal YEARS later to do something that should take the snap of a finger if he really is all powerful, but that's the problem when you take such a story as fact. The facts don't add up. Although, even when you look at it as a piece of fiction as the rest of us do the thing has more plot holes than the Star Wars saga after the Prequels.

(August 25, 2015 at 9:17 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 25, 2015 at 8:28 am)Rekeisha Wrote: I apologize I was unclear I wanted to know what human authority you were basing your statements off of.
The Bible is not a science text book and when God was speaking to the Hebrews He was speaking to them in ways that they would understand. If God explained how he created the universe you wouldn't even understand it.

I'm vaguely aware of what you're trying to trick me into saying and what line of argument you intend to employ if you succeed, but the problem is that what you're trying to get me to say isn't actually true, so it's not likely that I'm going to say it. I do not have a "human authority" for what I'm saying, nor a divine one. My statements are based on objective reality and truth as displayed by evidence. My knowledge and understanding of that evidence will always be limited by my perception and mental capacity, but the simple fact is that my beliefs and claims are not based on anyone's authority, they are based on objective reality as it demonstrably exists.


There is no reason to believe that a perfect, omniscient Gaud could not have convinced ancient peoples to understand and believe science. They believe every other word that's claimed to fall out of his face-hole, so why wouldn't they believe that the Earth is billions of years old and everything is made up of tiny particles?

Quote:Still wither your comment is hypothetical or not you can't make this argument because your world view does not support it. Even if being alive is against the odds that is not a good enough reason. An oddity does not give a thing worth or else we would celebrate every thing that is highly unlikely to happen as a good thing. Whenever you claim anything is evil or good you are being inconsistent and borrowing from my world view. Why would a living thing have more worth than a non living thing? It all started the same and it is still made up of atoms. There is nothing in your world view that can unequivocally give a person, an animal or our planet any worth. It is all just atoms banging against each other. Yes the odds are amazing way too amazing to not think that someone isn't tinkering with things. If I am playing poker with you and every hand I get is full of aces you would think I had rigged the game. Yet when it comes to the universe you leave it up to happenstance. People have worth more than just the fact that we can experience life because you have the finger print of the God of creation on you. You bear the image of the living God and that God deemed it worth while to set aside all of His right to make you right with Him by dieing on the cross for your sins. He could have destroyed everything and not allowed this very moment to happen but He didn't. He though that you are worth this moment. He will right every wrong one way or another but He enjoys giving mercy without sacrificing His justice. Life is even more rich in the presence of God. I don't need to strive for the after life either I can live not with God and the rest of eternity for God. If I live it is for the Glory of God and if I die I get to see even more fully the beauty and mystery of the God of glory. My life is good and my death is good because my death ushers me fully into the presences of God and all of those who love Him. It will be fantastic and something I am looking forward to but not trying to rush because I am willing to wait for God's timing.

Kindly refrain from telling me what arguments I can make from my world view when you still obviously don't understand my world view or the actual argument I made.


Rarity isn't the only reason life is precious, and it's not the only reason I gave. The actual reason it's precious to us as individuals (as I already stated) is that it is by far the most valuable resource any of us has. We each get one life and only one, and the minutes in it are finite. Once it runs out, that's it. That means all that any of us really has is this exact moment and the memories of the moments that have come before. Those moments are your life. You owe it to yourself to make as many of those moments as good as possible, and you owe it to others to not stop them from doing the same. That's the basis of my morality and the value of my life; I recognize that this life is the only one I get, and so it stands to reason I should take care of it and make it as good as possible and allow others to do the same.


As I've laboriously stated in previous posts (and yet you still fail to understand), good and evil are human concepts to describe categories of ideas and experiences. I did not borrow them from your stupid religion. Your religion borrowed the idea from the rest of human history, among whom the ideas of good and evil existed for probably thousands of years before the early stages of your little cult even started forming. Even animals have a rudimentary understanding of the concepts that suffering and death are bad while pleasure and health are good. It does not take higher understanding to make use of these concepts. Good and evil are simply evolved forms of these basic animal thought processes.


The simple truth is that I've already wasted too many of the precious moments of my life praying, attending church, and giving money to charlatans and sheeple, and damaging relationships and potential relationships with the constraints of a backward world view, and I do not intend to waste any more of them in like fashion. I'm glad I rid myself of faith early enough to enjoy the remaining two thirds or so of my life without the delusion, suffering, and drain on my resources that religion used to produce in my life. Simply put: I'm worth too much to be religious. So are you.

Dude, I have no grand plot against you and I am not tricking you. I have no problem about you not wanting to answer the question because I can't totally remember what I was going to ask you after that.

In His wisdom he know that he should not explain those kinds of things to Him. God reveal and conceals for a reason.

I apologize for not fulling understating what makes life precious to you. It sounds to me that you are saying that every moment is unique, am I right? According to you when did we start giving things worth? Why would we? When did atoms start to appreciate things? How do we know what life is? What if someone's enjoyment of life goes against how someone else chooses to enjoy their life? When is one alive?

I have run up against charlatans and lairs in the church, shoot my church split because of stuff like that. Still, I can't, and I am being honest, I can't drop my faith in God. That would be almost like saying that my husband never existed or my parents, or my sister, or my children. We have been through too much together for me to just act like I don't believe He isn't there. There isn't a day that I don't talk to Him and it has been like that for a long while now, and these days it is more real than when we first met. He has changed me and I need changing.  I am excited about where we are going in this life and in the life afterwards. That doesn't make life less precious but even more. Still, it does help me put things in persecutive and I am not so concerned about opinions and wither or not I have all that I want. I am still working on that but life is more peaceful and I am not as worried the more I put my trust in him. This isn't wishful thinking but seeing Him time after time come through.