(August 28, 2015 at 5:14 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I can understand getting mad about public schools teaching your kids creationism.  

But I can't understand why anyone should care if there's people out there who believe in a different origin of the universe as yourself. Some people need to relax and just live and let live a little bit. Sheesh lol.

I won't let it go and I do care. I care that it gets peddled as a legitimate theory to the unsuspecting. If they kept their crazy shit to themselves then fine, but they absolutely don't. It's not a valid theory of the origin of the Universe, not one bit and it should be fucking outlawed if we want to progress as a species.

Just to be clear, are you saying you think it should be illegal for people to share their beliefs about creationism?

(August 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:14 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: I won't let it go and I do care. I care that it gets peddled as a legitimate theory to the unsuspecting. If they kept their crazy shit to themselves then fine, but they absolutely don't. It's not a valid theory of the origin of the Universe, not one bit and it should be fucking outlawed if we want to progress as a species.

Just to be clear, are you saying you think it should be illegal for people to share their beliefs about creationism?

In a word, yes. Thankfully in the UK, it was banned from being taught in 'free schools' (they should be wiped out as well in my opinion).

From a news article some years back.

' Wrote:Creationism, intelligent design and other theories that contradict evolution are to be banned from being taught as science in free schools.

Critics have warned that evangelical groups will be able to teach such ideas without interference, as free schools will not have to follow the national curriculum.

But now the Department for Children, Education and Schools has issued guidance explicitly stating that teaching such theories as science will not be allowed.

The "minimum requirements" guidance, published earlier this week, reads: "Creationism, intelligent design and similar ideas must not be taught as valid scientific theories."

The guidance is to help those assessing applications for free schools.

More than 300 groups have already applied to set up free schools, including one by the Everyday Champions Church in Newark, Notts., which wants to include creationism as part of the national curriculum.

In January Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, said applications from creationist groups would be considered on a case-by-case basis.

That prompted a letter from the British Centre for Science Education (BCSE), which warned that creationists intended to use free schools to launch a "concerted attack" on science education.

And in June last year..

' Wrote:The United Kingdom government has banned the teaching of creationism as a scientific theory in free schools and academies, which are the equivalent of a 'public' school in the United States. The move was done in the interests of having a "broad and balanced curriculum," according to UPI.

The remarkable decision was part of a document published on June 9th that laid out new clauses for church academies and stated that creationism is not widely accepted as a scientific theory.

Huffington post and the Telegraph.

(August 28, 2015 at 5:10 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There's always going to be people who vote for people who you don't think will be good for the country. This applies to everyone, regardless of who you are and what you believe in. It seems completely pointless to me to get upset about people not believing in evolution. Lord knows there are waaayyyy too many other things to be upset about in the world lol.

Well, it's not like anyone here is saying they devote all their time being angry at those people.  I know I can multitask when it comes to focusing my anger.

(August 28, 2015 at 5:21 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just to be clear, are you saying you think it should be illegal for people to share their beliefs about creationism?

In a word, yes. Thankfully in the UK, it was banned from being taught in 'free schools' (they should be wiped out as well in my opinion).

From a news article some years back.

' Wrote:Creationism, intelligent design and other theories that contradict evolution are to be banned from being taught as science in free schools.

Critics have warned that evangelical groups will be able to teach such ideas without interference, as free schools will not have to follow the national curriculum.

But now the Department for Children, Education and Schools has issued guidance explicitly stating that teaching such theories as science will not be allowed.

The "minimum requirements" guidance, published earlier this week, reads: "Creationism, intelligent design and similar ideas must not be taught as valid scientific theories."

The guidance is to help those assessing applications for free schools.

More than 300 groups have already applied to set up free schools, including one by the Everyday Champions Church in Newark, Notts., which wants to include creationism as part of the national curriculum.

In January Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, said applications from creationist groups would be considered on a case-by-case basis.

That prompted a letter from the British Centre for Science Education (BCSE), which warned that creationists intended to use free schools to launch a "concerted attack" on science education.

(August 28, 2015 at 5:21 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just to be clear, are you saying you think it should be illegal for people to share their beliefs about creationism?

In a word, yes. Thankfully in the UK, it was banned from being taught in 'free schools' (they should be wiped out as well in my opinion).

From a news article some years back.

Quote:Creationism, intelligent design and other theories that contradict evolution are to be banned from being taught as science in free schools.

Critics have warned that evangelical groups will be able to teach such ideas without interference, as free schools will not have to follow the national curriculum.

But now the Department for Children, Education and Schools has issued guidance explicitly stating that teaching such theories as science will not be allowed.

The "minimum requirements" guidance, published earlier this week, reads: "Creationism, intelligent design and similar ideas must not be taught as valid scientific theories."

The guidance is to help those assessing applications for free schools.

More than 300 groups have already applied to set up free schools, including one by the Everyday Champions Church in Newark, Notts., which wants to include creationism as part of the national curriculum.

In January Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, said applications from creationist groups would be considered on a case-by-case basis.

That prompted a letter from the British Centre for Science Education (BCSE), which warned that creationists intended to use free schools to launch a "concerted attack" on science education.

Allowing it to be taught in free schools is one thing, and I already addressed that I was against it.

But saying a person should not be allowed to share their beliefs about creationism at all is taking it to a whoooole other level. Seems very extreme to me. What would the penalty be for someone who was caught talking about their belief in it?? This seems like the extreme atheism someone was talking about in another thread, and seems a lot more damaging to society than allowing people who believe in creationism to share their beliefs.

(August 28, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:21 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: In a word, yes. Thankfully in the UK, it was banned from being taught in 'free schools' (they should be wiped out as well in my opinion).

From a news article some years back.

Allowing it to be taught in free schools is one thing, and I already addressed that I was against it.

But saying a person should not be allowed to share their beliefs about creationism at all is taking it to a whoooole other level. Seems very extreme to me. What would the penalty be for someone who was caught talking about their belief in it?? This seems like the extreme atheism someone was talking about in another thread, and seems a lot more damaging to society than allowing people who believe in creationism to share their beliefs.

This is tiresome. It gets pushed into young vulnerable minds from various sources, churches, religious groups, internet (the infamous AIG), street corner preachers, door to door evangelists etc.

None of this should be allowed, it's damaging to society and encourages recycling of stupidity and should be made illegal whatever the source. Free speech is one thing, forcing fantasy and myths into minds and telling them it's true oversteps the line - it ruins a childs mind, often for life.

Call me extreme, militant, whatever you please. That's just how I am and I make my opinion clear, especially if this nonsense comes near my children (as I recently did at my daughters school).

(August 28, 2015 at 5:37 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Allowing it to be taught in free schools is one thing, and I already addressed that I was against it.

But saying a person should not be allowed to share their beliefs about creationism at all is taking it to a whoooole other level. Seems very extreme to me. What would the penalty be for someone who was caught talking about their belief in it?? This seems like the extreme atheism someone was talking about in another thread, and seems a lot more damaging to society than allowing people who believe in creationism to share their beliefs.

This is tiresome. It gets pushed into young vulnerable minds from various sources, churches, religious groups, internet (the infamous AIG), street corner preachers, door to door evangelists etc.

None of this should be allowed, it's damaging to society and encourages recycling of stupidity and should be made illegal whatever the source. Free speech is one thing, forcing fantasy and myths into minds and telling them it's true oversteps the line - it ruins a childs mind, often for life.

Call me extreme, militant, whatever you please. That's just how I am and I make my opinion clear, especially if this nonsense comes near my children (as I recently did at my daughters school).

Wow, lol. Alright, alright then.

I think part of the issue is that we don't have a fair marketplace of ideas.  Some ideas - like religious beliefs - are considered, culturally, off limits to criticism.  They have a protected status that's unwarranted.

Now, to be clear, I DO NOT BELIEVE that people should be persecuted for their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.  All I'm saying is that every religion is a collection of ideas, and they should stand and fall on their own merits rather than be shielded from criticism because they may involve a deity.

So, when someone declares they're a creationist, they have the cultural weight of religion behind them.  And while the opinion isn't mainstream, it has momentum behind it because the people who are trying to make it mainstream hide behind their religion.  "You can't deny me, because this is what I believe!"  That's an incredibly dangerous mindset to hold, but it works because people, businesses, and schools are afraid of litigation.

Thankfully, we're seeing a bit of a cultural push back in the US.  All the griping about Christians being persecuted in America?  That's those Christians being unable to digest the fact that being a Christian really shouldn't give them special rights or privileges, and people are denying them the special status they didn't even know they enjoyed.  The playing field is slowly but surely being leveled.

And that's a good thing.  Like I said, beliefs and opinions should stand or fall based on their merits and not anything else.  And just as a creationist has the right to spew their bullshit, I have the right to eviscerate their ideas in front of everyone.

But, yeah... a ton (the majority?) of religious people act as though their religious beliefs must be respected out of the gate.  Which is ridiculous.  I know my atheism isn't respected by most, and I certainly wouldn't expect my political beliefs to be respected just because I hold them.

(August 28, 2015 at 6:00 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: I think part of the issue is that we don't have a fair marketplace of ideas.  Some ideas - like religious beliefs - are considered, culturally, off limits to criticism.  They have a protected status that's unwarranted.

Now, to be clear, I DO NOT BELIEVE that people should be persecuted for their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.  All I'm saying is that every religion is a collection of ideas, and they should stand and fall on their own merits rather than be shielded from criticism because they may involve a deity.

So, when someone declares they're a creationist, they have the cultural weight of religion behind them.  And while the opinion isn't mainstream, it has momentum behind it because the people who are trying to make it mainstream hide behind their religion.  "You can't deny me, because this is what I believe!"  That's an incredibly dangerous mindset to hold, but it works because people, businesses, and schools are afraid of litigation.

Thankfully, we're seeing a bit of a cultural push back in the US.  All the griping about Christians being persecuted in America?  That's those Christians being unable to digest the fact that being a Christian really shouldn't give them special rights or privileges, and people are denying them the special status they didn't even know they enjoyed.  The playing field is slowly but surely being leveled.

And that's a good thing.  Like I said, beliefs and opinions should stand or fall based on their merits and not anything else.  And just as a creationist has the right to spew their bullshit, I have the right to eviscerate their ideas in front of everyone.

But, yeah... a ton (the majority?) of religious people act as though their religious beliefs must be respected out of the gate.  Which is ridiculous.  I know my atheism isn't respected by most, and I certainly wouldn't expect my political beliefs to be respected just because I hold them.

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of this.

It should be legal to criticize someone's religious belief, just like it should be legal for people to share/talk about their religious beliefs. Thankfully, we have not reached a point in this country where a person could get persecuted for doing either of those things. Hopefully things stay that way.

(August 28, 2015 at 10:47 am)IanHulett Wrote: I'm debating a creationist ATM, and he thinks that because we don't know how life began, it must be god. But why? Since a lot of (christians/creationists) think that, why does the answer to our biggest questions have to be God? Why can't we settle for "I don't know" and try to find the answer to these questions?

I'd love to see your responses.

I guess the question is really "why God and not happenstance". To that I would say that I can not even fathom how happenstance could have eventually created the plants and animals, or for that matter, any living thing. Seems to me that every thing was engineered. The complexity of DNA supports my assumption.