(August 29, 2015 at 11:38 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: I had my first therapist session of my life today, and it went really well! It made me feel very good. I'm grateful that I have Medicaid, without it, I don't know where I'd be.

Thanks for the support guys, I think things are going to slowly start heading in the right direction for me.

Hey, great news Sal! Keep it up! And hang in there c:

Im sorry for the pain everyone has gone through at the hands of their parents.

I'm glad to hear you've started therapy Crumb, that is excellent! I hope it works for you

Forgiveness is tricky. I've been told to "forgive" my parents too. For me, straight forward forgiveness is when someone has wronged you, they acknowledge they have wronged you and then you forgive them. In my case, my parents have never admitted they have wronged me and continue to put the blame onto me whenever possible. They also continue to try to psychologically manipulate me. In other words, the abuse is continuing. So standard "forgiveness" doesn't seem to work. They have to at the very least stop hurting me first!

However, I can accept that deep down they probably do love me, they are just so fucked up and fuelled by ego that it comes out completely wrong. They are also entirely resistant to criticism, so they never learn anything. Even though I can't "forgive" them, because that makes no sense in the current situation, I instead just "let it go". They've harmed me, they don't care or acknowledge it and still do it, but hating them doesn't achieve anything. So I kind of "forgive" the actions by filing them away appropriately rather than driving myself mad thinking about them.

I hope that made some sense It's been part of my own therapy, working on my attitudes. The situations in my life are the same, it's just how I view them that has changed. And boy does it make a big difference!

(August 29, 2015 at 11:33 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

(August 29, 2015 at 5:33 pm)deep thinker Wrote: I also appreciate your ability to respect my beliefs.  I think most religious people, if they are being honest with themselves, would admit to questioning their faith during hard times in their life.  I pray for our species that we will continue to evolve with our spiritual beliefs and eventually have churches that accept people of all faiths, including people that do not believe in any particular god but have a belief in the essence of the human soul.  A simple belief there is a natural divide between good and evil and that it takes an incredibly strong soul to confront evil and forgive evil with acts of love and passion.  I think it is natural to believe in a creator as logic tells my brain it is impossible for every atom to have been created from nothing.  It would be like believing a building just naturally occurred without any input from a higher power. 

But, I can absolutely respect the belief system of an atheist.  With all of the tragedy in the world and the ability of our mind to grasp immensely complicated concepts, it is easy to lose faith and assume there cannot be a God if we cannot prove it through science.  I guess the flip side of that logic is that we will never be able to prove a god doesn't exist.  I will end with this thought.  I have lived a portion of my life without a belief in God and it was an extremely depressing period in my life.  Not believing in a God with modern day Christian values left me with a very sick and depressed world view.  All I cared about was myself.  It was a very selfish mentality.  I was introduced to a very positive Christian church by a friend and it has been a wonderful influence in my life.  The friendships I have built will last a lifetime and I have been able to help many other families in need.  So, thank you for being able to accept my belief system.  I'm not sure what is was like to attend a Christian church 50 years ago but I can say that my experience today has been 100% positive.  Hearing messages of faith, hope and love is good for the human spirit.  I believe we were wired to receive love and give compassion.  I hope things work out between you and your father.  I pray your father can become a less judgmental person.  He is not perfect and sins every day of his life so he should accept everyone else for who they are as long as they aren't hurting anyone else.

Well, I’ve tried to forgive the evil acts over and over again, but since the evil doesn’t want to stop, I thought it might be time to walk away from it, because it was severely affecting my mental and physical health.

“I think it is natural to believe in a creator as logic tells my brain it is impossible for every atom to have been created from nothing” This is a logical fallacy, which is called an argument from ignorance. You don’t know how something could have occurred, therefore god. You have a right to believe this, but what does your logic tell you about how this mysterious, invisible man in the sky was created? If you think there MUST be a creator for all of this, then you must believe that there was a creator for your god. How can a god just pop into existence? Think about it; you get into an infinite regression. If you believe there is an eternal god that came out of nothing, then why would it be crazy to think that the universe is eternal? It’s a more natural explanation, when all supernatural explanations fail miserably. It seems your god fails in the evidence department, and sounds like a tall tale. I don’t see anything supernatural happening on this planet. I see more and more being explained as time progresses. I don’t see your god doing anything for this planet, in fact, he allows people to kill each other over an argument of his existence constantly. You think this god would reveal himself to the world, and actually enlighten everyone once and for all.

To me, a logical conclusion to make is a) a god exists and doesn’t care to provide a shred of evidence of his existence (which means he allows pure evil constantly) b) a god doesn’t exist.

When looking at this, I cannot worship something that probably isn’t there. Also, I see no evidence of a god that has ever done anything for me, so I can’t worship on those terms either. And, don’t make the mistake of saying a presupposition, where you assume a god exists for a fact and say, “God gave you life, you should be thankful or worship him.” I actually don’t, because he’s nowhere to be found. Simple as that.

To address your previous atheism.. I felt the feeling of emptiness (not entire meaninglessness, but a general emptiness) as well that lasted a month or two. I, then, continued to live my life as normal. The feeling passed, and I realized I still had my family, and I still had the same life whether I was going to exist after death or not. These feelings subside, and you shouldn’t believe or not believe things based on your feelings. You can still live a fulfilling life as an atheist. I’m completely back to my normal self, and could never delude/force myself to believe something that I don’t believe in, based on how it made me feel. I’m sure you have a stronger character than that, so to give you some friendly advice, don’t do that. I’m glad that you’re happy with your faith, but you really should question it big time, because it is a completely made-up religion with many logical holes in it. Even if you still believed in a higher power, I guess that’s a start for not making you depressed, but I’m not trying to convert you, but I strongly suggest you have some logical thought with yourself, and say, “I don’t really believe in hell, so why would I need a savior? Why would god need a savior? Why come 2,000 years ago and save people, when humans have been around for much longer than that?” There’s a tons of logical fun you can have with the bible, if you really open yourself up to it.

You’re one of the few theists that I’ve come across on here, that I’ve actually liked, and I could see myself carrying a conversation on with you.. I hope you stick around, and join in on some conversation, and all I can say is remain open-minded and try to be honest when defending your beliefs. Have a good day

Our discussion represents everything that is beautiful about America.  Two people with different belief systems respecting our differences.  Too bad this isn't more acceptable in other parts of the world. 

I have had all of those thoughts you listed.  I cannot believe that all matter has existed forever with no creator.  I also cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing.  Therefore, I believe there is another realm that operates with a completely different reality that our brains are not capable of comprehending, discovering or recreating.  I do not understand how a God (creator) could have existed without its own creator.  This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.  There is no natural observation for this that we can observe but somehow, our brains have the abstract ability to understand this doesn't make any logical sense.  In this way, atheists and theists are more similar then we realize.  This is my hope for humanity.  People like you and I, with completely different belief systems, are very capable of respecting each other and judging each other by the character of our actions. 

We are so blessed to be humans.  As far as we know, we are the only species in the universe to think in the abstract.  We can love on level not shared by any other species.  We can hate each other on a level not shared by any other species.  Humans represent the kindness acts of love and the deepest acts of hate all within the same species.  We have free will like no other species.  We can choose kind actions or evil actions.  This is unique.  How would matter evolve to such a chaotic state?  I believe the bible is our creator's way of trying to explain the next realm with concepts we are able to understand in our current realm.

(August 30, 2015 at 2:15 am)Deidre32 Wrote: I too have struggles still with my dad. Things are better ...he tries. I try too. But, it kinda sucks that either of us have to try so hard at something that should come naturally. He continuously asks me when I will 'come back' to the faith, and repeatedly asks me to attend church services with him. I understand the issues you're dealing with...sending you hope and love. And a hug. You can't change him, but you can take deep breaths and accept that he is who he is, and you can only change/control how you react to him.

Thank you Deidre Sorry to hear about your dad (what's with the goofball dads? Lots of them on here) Parents have a hard time of accepting that you're not a kid anymore, and need to force their way of thinking onto you. I know it can be annoying. I'm trying to move on. Now that I'm away from the house, the last thing that you wrote is what I need to work on, and I think I'll be a much happier person.

(August 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

(August 30, 2015 at 2:15 am)Deidre32 Wrote: I too have struggles still with my dad. Things are better ...he tries. I try too. But, it kinda sucks that either of us have to try so hard at something that should come naturally. He continuously asks me when I will 'come back' to the faith, and repeatedly asks me to attend church services with him. I understand the issues you're dealing with...sending you hope and love. And a hug. You can't change him, but you can take deep breaths and accept that he is who he is, and you can only change/control how you react to him.

Thank you Deidre Sorry to hear about your dad (what's with the goofball dads? Lots of them on here) Parents have a hard time of accepting that you're not a kid anymore, and need to force their way of thinking onto you. I know it can be annoying. I'm trying to move on. Now that I'm away from the house, the last thing that you wrote is what I need to work on, and I think I'll be a much happier person.

YW. That part is hard, but with effort, you will rise above it all. The challenge with situations such as these, is that it's affected my romantic relationships with men. I have a hard time trusting that the men won't 'turn into my dad.' So, everything starts off great, and somewhere along the way...when things get more serious, I break away in fear. I'm working on that though. See, I can blame my father for all of that, but it's really up to me, now. It's up to you as well, to live the life of YOUR choosing. And it will be great. 

(August 30, 2015 at 12:56 pm)deep thinker Wrote: Our discussion represents everything that is beautiful about America.  Two people with different belief systems respecting our differences.  Too bad this isn't more acceptable in other parts of the world. 

I have had all of those thoughts you listed.  I cannot believe that all matter has existed forever with no creator.  I also cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing.  Therefore, I believe there is another realm that operates with a completely different reality that our brains are not capable of comprehending, discovering or recreating.  I do not understand how a God (creator) could have existed without its own creator.  This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.  There is no natural observation for this that we can observe but somehow, our brains have the abstract ability to understand this doesn't make any logical sense.  In this way, atheists and theists are more similar then we realize.  This is my hope for humanity.  People like you and I, with completely different belief systems, are very capable of respecting each other and judging each other by the character of our actions. 

We are so blessed to be humans.  As far as we know, we are the only species in the universe to think in the abstract.  We can love on level not shared by any other species.  We can hate each other on a level not shared by any other species.  Humans represent the kindness acts of love and the deepest acts of hate all within the same species.  We have free will like no other species.  We can choose kind actions or evil actions.  This is unique.  How would matter evolve to such a chaotic state?  I believe the bible is our creator's way of trying to explain the next realm with concepts we are able to understand in our current realm.

You cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing, but you can believe that this magical god was magically created from nothing? To me, it makes more sense that there is a natural explanation, because I see no reason to believe in anything supernatural. Also, the explanation for matter, likely, isn’t a magical one, but of course, I can’t know for sure. You, then admit that you can’t understand how a god could come out of nothing either. I’m very glad to see that you made it that far to admit that. However, in your next sentence you say that, “This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.” Again, I say, eternal universe vs. eternal god, which is more likely? If you believe that there can be an eternal god out there, to me, that’s more of a stretch than having an eternal universe, that requires no supernatural explanations. I don’t know enough about the universe, so instead, I don’t make arguments from ignorance, and say that there must be a creator, because I can’t see how this all came about. Our brains are probably so puny compared to what they could be. We think we our enlightened beings that are much smarter than anything out there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s life out there, that is much much more intelligent than us. If they could see us and our primitive rituals, they’d probably laugh at us. Many humans seem to think they’re special, because of religion or their cognitive capabilities, but I feel I’m no better than any of the animals out there, and that I’m just a small part in nature, trying to fit into the world, and trying to be happy while doing it.

What you say may be true about our ability to think, love, and hate more than any other species. I did just watch the documentary Blackfish, and orcas may have the ability to feel love more than we can when they briefly talked about how their brains were set up. Just because we’re homo sapiens, doesn’t mean that we’re god’s favorite, or created in his image. It took billions of years of life to evolve on this microscopic part of the universe, for us to come around. It doesn’t seem like we are chosen by god, or that the creation myth in genesis is true, because humans have been around longer than it says in the bible, and we didn’t just pop into existence by god breathing into our nostrils. There’s a lot of evidence to contradict those claims.

It seems that you are trying to use the think, hate, and love as evidence that we are special in some sort of way, but try to keep in mind, we aren’t the fastest, we can’t defend ourselves the best in the wild, we can’t jump the highest, we don’t have the best eyesight or hearing, etc. These things may be something for you to think about, if that’s the conclusion that you’re trying to come to (that god created us special in every way better than all of the other animals).

I am open-minded to some sort of higher power out there, but definitely can’t see our species being created in god’s image, or that god loves us more than the other animals, and potentially more than any other creature that might exist out there in the cosmos. That’s something religions forget. There’s an estimated 2 billion planets out there that could contain life, so, going by probability, I’m going to say that the other evolved lifeforms that probably exist out there, don’t know jesus is their savior, or that the Hindu gods should be given food offerings. These are man-made constructs. Thanks again for the chat, and the open-mindedness.

(August 30, 2015 at 2:15 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

(August 30, 2015 at 12:56 pm)deep thinker Wrote: Our discussion represents everything that is beautiful about America.  Two people with different belief systems respecting our differences.  Too bad this isn't more acceptable in other parts of the world. 

I have had all of those thoughts you listed.  I cannot believe that all matter has existed forever with no creator.  I also cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing.  Therefore, I believe there is another realm that operates with a completely different reality that our brains are not capable of comprehending, discovering or recreating.  I do not understand how a God (creator) could have existed without its own creator.  This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.  There is no natural observation for this that we can observe but somehow, our brains have the abstract ability to understand this doesn't make any logical sense.  In this way, atheists and theists are more similar then we realize.  This is my hope for humanity.  People like you and I, with completely different belief systems, are very capable of respecting each other and judging each other by the character of our actions. 

We are so blessed to be humans.  As far as we know, we are the only species in the universe to think in the abstract.  We can love on level not shared by any other species.  We can hate each other on a level not shared by any other species.  Humans represent the kindness acts of love and the deepest acts of hate all within the same species.  We have free will like no other species.  We can choose kind actions or evil actions.  This is unique.  How would matter evolve to such a chaotic state?  I believe the bible is our creator's way of trying to explain the next realm with concepts we are able to understand in our current realm.

You cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing, but you can believe that this magical god was magically created from nothing? To me, it makes more sense that there is a natural explanation, because I see no reason to believe in anything supernatural. Also, the explanation for matter, likely, isn’t a magical one, but of course, I can’t know for sure. You, then admit that you can’t understand how a god could come out of nothing either. I’m very glad to see that you made it that far to admit that. However, in your next sentence you say that, “This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.” Again, I say, eternal universe vs. eternal god, which is more likely? If you believe that there can be an eternal god out there, to me, that’s more of a stretch than having an eternal universe, that requires no supernatural explanations. I don’t know enough about the universe, so instead, I don’t make arguments from ignorance, and say that there must be a creator, because I can’t see how this all came about. Our brains are probably so puny compared to what they could be. We think we our enlightened beings that are much smarter than anything out there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s life out there, that is much much more intelligent than us. If they could see us and our primitive rituals, they’d probably laugh at us. Many humans seem to think they’re special, because of religion or their cognitive capabilities, but I feel I’m no better than any of the animals out there, and that I’m just a small part in nature, trying to fit into the world, and trying to be happy while doing it.

What you say may be true about our ability to think, love, and hate more than any other species. I did just watch the documentary Blackfish, and orcas may have the ability to feel love more than we can when they briefly talked about how their brains were set up. Just because we’re homo sapiens, doesn’t mean that we’re god’s favorite, or created in his image. It took billions of years of life to evolve on this microscopic part of the universe, for us to come around. It doesn’t seem like we are chosen by god, or that the creation myth in genesis is true, because humans have been around longer than it says in the bible, and we didn’t just pop into existence by god breathing into our nostrils. There’s a lot of evidence to contradict those claims.

It seems that you are trying to use the think, hate, and love as evidence that we are special in some sort of way, but try to keep in mind, we aren’t the fastest, we can’t defend ourselves the best in the wild, we can’t jump the highest, we don’t have the best eyesight or hearing, etc. These things may be something for you to think about, if that’s the conclusion that you’re trying to come to (that god created us special in every way better than all of the other animals).

I am open-minded to some sort of higher power out there, but definitely can’t see our species being created in god’s image, or that god loves us more than the other animals, and potentially more than any other creature that might exist out there in the cosmos. That’s something religions forget. There’s an estimated 2 billion planets out there that could contain life, so, going by probability, I’m going to say that the other evolved lifeforms that probably exist out there, don’t know jesus is their savior, or that the Hindu gods should be given food offerings. These are man-made constructs. Thanks again for the chat, and the open-mindedness.

Thank you as well.  I enjoyed our chat too.  I will pray for you to further think about the likelihood of an eternal universe versus an eternal god.  I do believe humans are extremely special and unlike any other species in the universe.  If life is that simple to produce through nature then we should observe exponential forms of life in the universe.  Many of which would be billions of years further ahead then us.  You would think someone would have made contact with our planet by now.  Also, if we did evolve from rocks or monkeys then we should have found fossil evidence by now.  Where are the remains of a half human half monkey?  Remember, evolution is only a theory.  It is not fact.  I'm not saying evolution absolutely did not happen but I am saying there is no proof that we evolved from monkeys or dirt.  It is simply a theory.  Anyway, I really enjoyed our chat.  I feel like you are the type of open minded person I could spend hours chatting with.  I wish there were more respectful people like us on both sides of the creation argument.

(August 30, 2015 at 5:54 pm)deep thinker Wrote:

(August 30, 2015 at 2:15 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: You cannot believe that all matter was magically created from nothing, but you can believe that this magical god was magically created from nothing? To me, it makes more sense that there is a natural explanation, because I see no reason to believe in anything supernatural. Also, the explanation for matter, likely, isn’t a magical one, but of course, I can’t know for sure. You, then admit that you can’t understand how a god could come out of nothing either. I’m very glad to see that you made it that far to admit that. However, in your next sentence you say that, “This is similar to an atheist not understanding or knowing how all matter would have been created from nothing or existed forever with no beginning.” Again, I say, eternal universe vs. eternal god, which is more likely? If you believe that there can be an eternal god out there, to me, that’s more of a stretch than having an eternal universe, that requires no supernatural explanations. I don’t know enough about the universe, so instead, I don’t make arguments from ignorance, and say that there must be a creator, because I can’t see how this all came about. Our brains are probably so puny compared to what they could be. We think we our enlightened beings that are much smarter than anything out there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s life out there, that is much much more intelligent than us. If they could see us and our primitive rituals, they’d probably laugh at us. Many humans seem to think they’re special, because of religion or their cognitive capabilities, but I feel I’m no better than any of the animals out there, and that I’m just a small part in nature, trying to fit into the world, and trying to be happy while doing it.

What you say may be true about our ability to think, love, and hate more than any other species. I did just watch the documentary Blackfish, and orcas may have the ability to feel love more than we can when they briefly talked about how their brains were set up. Just because we’re homo sapiens, doesn’t mean that we’re god’s favorite, or created in his image. It took billions of years of life to evolve on this microscopic part of the universe, for us to come around. It doesn’t seem like we are chosen by god, or that the creation myth in genesis is true, because humans have been around longer than it says in the bible, and we didn’t just pop into existence by god breathing into our nostrils. There’s a lot of evidence to contradict those claims.

It seems that you are trying to use the think, hate, and love as evidence that we are special in some sort of way, but try to keep in mind, we aren’t the fastest, we can’t defend ourselves the best in the wild, we can’t jump the highest, we don’t have the best eyesight or hearing, etc. These things may be something for you to think about, if that’s the conclusion that you’re trying to come to (that god created us special in every way better than all of the other animals).

I am open-minded to some sort of higher power out there, but definitely can’t see our species being created in god’s image, or that god loves us more than the other animals, and potentially more than any other creature that might exist out there in the cosmos. That’s something religions forget. There’s an estimated 2 billion planets out there that could contain life, so, going by probability, I’m going to say that the other evolved lifeforms that probably exist out there, don’t know jesus is their savior, or that the Hindu gods should be given food offerings. These are man-made constructs. Thanks again for the chat, and the open-mindedness.

Thank you as well.  I enjoyed our chat too.  I will pray for you to further think about the likelihood of an eternal universe versus an eternal god.  I do believe humans are extremely special and unlike any other species in the universe.  If life is that simple to produce through nature then we should observe exponential forms of life in the universe.  Many of which would be billions of years further ahead then us.  You would think someone would have made contact with our planet by now.  Also, if we did evolve from rocks or monkeys then we should have found fossil evidence by now.  Where are the remains of a half human half monkey?  Remember, evolution is only a theory.  It is not fact.  I'm not saying evolution absolutely did not happen but I am saying there is no proof that we evolved from monkeys or dirt.  It is simply a theory.  Anyway, I really enjoyed our chat.  I feel like you are the type of open minded person I could spend hours chatting with.  I wish there were more respectful people like us on both sides of the creation argument.

You very much need to read some science. You don’t even know what evolution or a theory is. Gravity is a theory. You know gravity is a fact right? Here is what Wiki says about a theory: A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

A theory is a massive collection of data (facts) that all support another fact (but this theory <fact> generally isn’t entirely understood). There is monumental evidence of change over time for many reasons. I’m reading The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins. I’d recommend that, and reading as much as you can on the internet about it. There are so many interesting experiments that have been done, where scientists have witnessed quite dramatic changes just over a few generations when exposing species to different environments. That’s just one eensy weensy example. You can look at skulls or skeletons of humans, and watch them slowly change over millions of years. It’s one of the most interesting things in science. Please get started on reading about it, and not from christian websites. Talkorigins.org is highly credible, you can search anything on that subject on there.

(August 30, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(August 30, 2015 at 1:04 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Thank you Deidre Sorry to hear about your dad (what's with the goofball dads? Lots of them on here) Parents have a hard time of accepting that you're not a kid anymore, and need to force their way of thinking onto you. I know it can be annoying. I'm trying to move on. Now that I'm away from the house, the last thing that you wrote is what I need to work on, and I think I'll be a much happier person.

YW. That part is hard, but with effort, you will rise above it all. The challenge with situations such as these, is that it's affected my romantic relationships with men. I have a hard time trusting that the men won't 'turn into my dad.' So, everything starts off great, and somewhere along the way...when things get more serious, I break away in fear. I'm working on that though. See, I can blame my father for all of that, but it's really up to me, now. It's up to you as well, to live the life of YOUR choosing. And it will be great. 

I feel it's affected many potential relationships that I could have had. I haven't had many at all, because I didn't want to bring anyone home to my house, because I was too scared what my dad would say to them. I was also just embarrassed by him in general, because he is a little "out there". He'd want to start talking politics right off the bat or start telling everyone his wild theories when first meeting people. His mental abuse, made me feel way less confident too, but I feel a lot more confident, and more of myself now, that I'm away from him. I feel that he doesn't even really know me, although he likes to say that he knows me better than I know me, but I almost never could be myself around him. Any humor on my part would be shut down constantly by him saying that he's not in the mood, or he can't be happy for whatever stupid reason. But, the rare times he feels like joking around, he's mad that we're not getting in a goofy mood with him. I don't think he'll ever see what he does.

Same here, I can change now, and not blame my father for the way I am, because I can be who I want to be now. I hope you can work through your fear, there's many good guys out there. Don't break off things until they go bad, not before, because they may never go bad. Easier said than done though, I'm sure.

BTW, love your avatar.

(August 30, 2015 at 3:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Im sorry for the pain everyone has gone through at the hands of their parents.

I'm glad to hear you've started therapy Crumb, that is excellent! I hope it works for you

Forgiveness is tricky. I've been told to "forgive" my parents too. For me, straight forward forgiveness is when someone has wronged you, they acknowledge they have wronged you and then you forgive them. In my case, my parents have never admitted they have wronged me and continue to put the blame onto me whenever possible. They also continue to try to psychologically manipulate me. In other words, the abuse is continuing. So standard "forgiveness" doesn't seem to work. They have to at the very least stop hurting me first!

However, I can accept that deep down they probably do love me, they are just so fucked up and fuelled by ego that it comes out completely wrong. They are also entirely resistant to criticism, so they never learn anything. Even though I can't "forgive" them, because that makes no sense in the current situation, I instead just "let it go". They've harmed me, they don't care or acknowledge it and still do it, but hating them doesn't achieve anything. So I kind of "forgive" the actions by filing them away appropriately rather than driving myself mad thinking about them.

I hope that made some sense It's been part of my own therapy, working on my attitudes. The situations in my life are the same, it's just how I view them that has changed. And boy does it make a big difference!

Everything that you have said makes perfect sense, and I can relate perfectly, but at least I have one amazing parent and brother. Sorry both of your parents are goofballs. At least you have your own space, a wife that loves you, and pets to keep you company while your wife is at work.

And you can't forget us. I care about you man, I hope you stick around here for life!