So basically, life can't come from non living things. But is must have done. So life is impossible.

Therefor there must be a being that can do the impossible.

This is defining something into existence to fix a paradox you have created yourself. And it still doesn't really fix the paradox; if God can do it, it's possible, so there never was any paradox.

Abiogenesis in the lab is probably coming fairly soon. Will it demolish religion once and for all?

Nah. What's one more fact to ignore?

Ambiogensis hasn't been scientifically proven and you believe it yet you don't believe the Bible (even though it has more evidence backing it up) because it isn't scientifically proven. I think you have a double standard. If you come to the Fossil records with the wrong foundation your conclusions will be wrong. If you do not want to admit you are a sinner and in need of God's salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then you will find other ways to justify you current lifestyle.

So to Whateverist the White it is not that it has nothing to do with my background and everything to do with my God. I just was in Ireland and I have meet people who lived in religions what were not Christian at all and because Christian out of that. There are very few who actually believe in God in that city. There are also people who have grown up in Christian families who do not believe. I know that God give us revelations about Himself and what we do with it is our responsibility. I don't know how many Christians are on this website but you have been given light through our testimonies, even though we are not perfect. Our message is simple but costly. Your are a sinner and on your way to hell. Jesus came and died and was resurrected. You need to repent and accept his death and put your faith in Him as your Lord and Savior. This mean turning from you old life and following after Him. This is a free gift and you can not earn it. Why most people don't do it is because they don't want God they would rather lie to themselves and live as though there is not God or make up their own. God sent people to tell the truth but you are free to believe or divisible. God isn't going to force you to be with Him but He will give you every opportunity you need to believe.

Didn't watch the whole video, but what the fuck is wrong with picking and choosing exactly? Wouldn't religion be a lot better if people picked and chose, rather than saying "Oh yeah, all of this is true because it's in this book."

If people used the bible as a guide, rather than an instruction booklet, Christianity would be much better off.

I don't see how the fuck anyone can say that the biblical story of creation has much evidence for it. In fact there's plenty of fucking evidence against it. Which is why I think you can disregard the bible altogether.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: Ambiogensis hasn't been scientifically proven and you believe it yet you don't believe the Bible (even though it has more evidence backing it up) because it isn't scientifically proven. I think you have a double standard. If you come to the Fossil records with the wrong foundation your conclusions will be wrong. If you do not want to admit you are a sinner and in need of God's salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then you will find other ways to justify you current lifestyle.

I wouldn't exactly say abiogenesis hasn't been scientifically proven. Like I said, we understand many if not most of the mechanisms that are most likely to go into it, and it follows reasonably that life must be able to develop from non-living material because the evidence scattered throughout the planet we're on right now indicates that Earth didn't always have life on it, and now it does. That definitely happened somewhere along the line, and it must have started somehow. Because my belief is based on evidence and yours is not, mine does not require faith, while yours does.


What you're trying to do is paint atheists as holding beliefs based on faith so you can then turn and say, "See, we both believe on faith! Why can't you just let me believe what I want?!"


What you're failing to recognize is that for us, belief is not a choice. I didn't choose to stop believing in God. I didn't choose to stop believing I would go to heaven when I die. Parts of that mythology (fucked up as it is) were actually quite comforting to me. I employed considerable mental gymnastics and at times outright ignorance of opposing information just to protect my world view. I finally decided that if my world view was that solid, then there was no need to protect myself from other people's evidence. When I looked at the evidence, my belief changed. I didn't necessarily want it to, but as an otherwise rational person, I just couldn't justify what it took to keep convincing myself that the Bible was a reasonable basis for belief and morality in a rational human being. My atheism isn't about what I want to believe; it's about what I know from the facts I'm staring at.


What do you even know about my or anyone else's lifestyle? I'm a married man in a faithful heterosexual (not that it matters) relationship, I don't make trouble, I pay my taxes, I try to be nice to strangers, I maintain a job and pay my bills...for all intents and purposes, I'm probably at least as good a person as you are.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: Ambiogensis hasn't been scientifically proven and you believe it yet you don't believe the Bible (even though it has more evidence backing it up) because it isn't scientifically proven. I think you have a double standard.

I freely admit it isn't a question of evidence.  I have no more than you do and I think we both have no evidence at all.  So, when faced with a proposition for which there is not conclusive evidence what do we do?  We both fall back on our working theories.  Yours is that the bible is authoritative.  Mine is that everything has a natural cause and that there is no magic, woo, or supernatural beings.  

Don't get me wrong, I find the natural world an absolutely amazing place.  But it is even more magical to me precisely because all we discover is intrinsic/natural to the world of which we are a part.  If I thought there was a man behind a curtain just making up stuff on a whim, it would be much less special to me.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: If you do not want to admit you are a sinner and in need of God's salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then you will find other ways to justify you current lifestyle.

Maybe some do but I don't worry much about justification.  What really counts is fulfillment.  If you're making good choices in your life you should find more of that, other circumstances being equal.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: So to Whateverist the White it is not that it has nothing to do with my background and everything to do with my God.

I've already conceded that I'm sure that is how it seems to you.  But if you're trying to convince others you still have the whole way to go.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: I know that God give us revelations about Himself and what we do with it is our responsibility.

You know what you know.  I know what I know.  I think you've learned to interpret events in light of the god belief you have and I think that is fine if it pleases you.  But if you're looking to convince me, no deal.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: I don't know how many Christians are on this website but you have been given light through our testimonies, even though we are not perfect.

Yeah, most of you suck at this.  Study Cathy.  She is winning our hearts and minds in a real way.  She is showing what a good person a believer can be.  We (most of us) respect that.  But don't worry, I'm sure you'll earn your merit badge for trying.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: Our message is simple but costly.

What does it cost you?  Is our company so toxic for you?  Maybe you're just frustrated because you're not achieving your mission.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: Your are a sinner and on your way to hell. Jesus came and died and was resurrected. You need to repent and accept his death and put your faith in Him as your Lord and Savior. This mean turning from you old life and following after Him. This is a free gift and you can not earn it. Why most people don't do it is because they don't want God they would rather lie to themselves and live as though there is not God or make up their own. God sent people to tell the truth but you are free to believe or divisible. God isn't going to force you to be with Him but He will give you every opportunity you need to believe.

Blahdy-blahdy-blah.  If only I had a nickel for every time I've heard those words.  If this is all you've got why bother?

Divinity I believe all of the bible because Christianity doesn't work if you pick and choose. Chrisitany isn't about comfort or making others feel good about themselves it is about Jesus. It has always been about Jesus that is why it is call Christianity. Every word He has said, wither it goes with or against the norms of society, is to be followed. It is also a matter of integrity if you are going to follow Jesus that means following everything.

Whateverist the White I can't convince any of you that God exist that isn't my job. My Job or mission is to tell you and others about the gospel.

It cost me not because I have to be in your company but because the things that God calls me to are not always easy and I have to give up my control to allow Him to reign and rule my life. He knows what He is doing but at times I don't fully trust Him. The dieing to self is not a theory but an actual command. Instead of cursing I am called to bless. Instead of seeking my rights I am called to give up my self interest for others. The process of being changed from self-centered to God centered is not easy. I couldn't and wouldn't do it without the grace of God. I would rather not argue about abiogenesis or wither someone is real or not. When life starts, if the bible is full of lies or if God is evil. I would just love to wake up and laze around the house and enjoy my kids and husband. Still, that isn't what I am called to do. People are perishing and seeking my own comfort wold be an evil thing to do in light of what I know.

Readbeard the Pink usually what I say is what I mean. If I wanted to point to the fact that you have faith like I do I would have simply stated it. I was really getting at the double standard I find in some of your arguments. When I was speaking of lifestyle I was just saying the life style that neglects God. If we are talking about comparing a human to a human I don't know you well enough to say how good or bad you are. When I look at myself in light of Jesus I fall short. He is good and I am not. Peoples' standards of what good and bad are don't matter because in the end there will be a judgment and if I were to stand on my own merit in front of God I would be condemned for my actions.

I hear that you don't believe because of the evidence that you have found. That you said that you have had to do mental gymnastics. I don't know how you were brought up or what you believe so I can't say wither or not it was grounded in biblical faith. I do know that no argument will shake my knowledge of God. You all on the forum my just think I am another religious nut but my relationship with God transcends religion. Take all the books and ceremonies away and the relationship I have with God still stands. I know He died for my sins and rose on the third day with all power and authority. I know Him and that relationship isn't a theory but a personal thing where He is directing me to move from my country or speak to a certain person or pray for a certain thing. These are things not found in the bible but are real.

You say you know these things. How?

There's not a single thing written by Jesus. Not a single one. So I'm not sure how you can be so sure that everything they said he said is what he actually said. Especially since most of them aren't even fucking first hand accounts.

(September 10, 2015 at 1:55 pm)Divinity Wrote: Didn't watch the whole video, but what the fuck is wrong with picking and choosing exactly?  Wouldn't religion be a lot better if people picked and chose, rather than saying "Oh yeah, all of this is true because it's in this book."

If people used the bible as a guide, rather than an instruction booklet, Christianity would be much better off.  

I don't see how the fuck anyone can say that the biblical story of creation has much evidence for it.  In fact there's plenty of fucking evidence against it.  Which is why I think you can disregard the bible altogether.

The picking and choosing is what gets us 40,000 denominations, sects, schisms and spin-offs.

And if you haven't noticed, that's effing chaos.  Should make one wonder if even a particle of it was divinely inspired.

(September 11, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: I hear that you don't believe because of the evidence that you have found. That you said that you have had to do mental gymnastics. I don't know how you were brought up or what you believe so I can't say wither or not it was grounded in biblical faith. I do know that no argument will shake my knowledge of God. You all on the forum my just think I am another religious nut but my relationship with God transcends religion. Take all the books and ceremonies away and the relationship I have with God still stands. I know He died for my sins and rose on the third day with all power and authority. I know Him and that relationship isn't a theory but a personal thing where He is directing me to move from my country or speak to a certain person or pray for a certain thing. These are things not found in the bible but are real.

Then stick around Rekeisha. You will hear many of our background stories, and may be surprised to learn that many, many of us come from hard-line evangelical/literalist Christian backgrounds like yours. I personally was raised Southern Baptist, we never missed church when its doors were open, and my parents were both active in the church through numerous programs, as I was, then. My dad is to this day leader of the church orchestra, while my mother is just retired this year as a department head and professor of speech/theatre at a private Baptist university (Louisiana College), though she has taken up part time teaching at Louisiana State University at Alexandria (LSU-A). I gave up my faith when I realized that I was doing "mental gymnastics" to keep from understanding the actual evidence about the world, and that my church had misled me as to the facts about science and even taught wrong information about other beliefs, including atheism. When I started to look into the facts, with an open mind, I discovered that (like Redbeard) I could no longer square my beliefs with what I had learned.

It is a question of basic intellectual honesty. No truly honest person would ever say, " I do know that no argument will shake my knowledge of _______." <--- It does not matter what goes into the blank; it is fundamentally (pun intended) dishonest to make any statement which precludes the ability to honestly examine your ideas and beliefs, and to change your mind if you are wrong.

Your relationship is not a "theory" because it doesn't even qualify as one. The label of Theory is the highest praise we can give to an idea, in science. It means that it has been repeatedly tested and proven to comport with all facts, and has been modified and changed when the facts do not fit, or a better explanation has been offered, until it withstands scrutiny from all who assail the idea. Atomic theory, germ theory, kinetics theory, the theory of evolution by natural selection, and the theory of gravity... all are ideas I hold but would change upon better evidence. That is called "intellectual honesty". Stopping one's self from doing it is what we referred to as "mental gymnastics", dodging each new idea that doesn't fit with our pet belief system.

I would be deeply ashamed of myself if I said that there was an idea--any idea--I held which could not be prevailed upon by evidence. And you should be, too.