(September 12, 2015 at 7:24 pm)KUSA Wrote: Why do people deny it occurred? What is the motivation.

As I understand it, it is based in a particularly vitriolic brand of anti-Semitism. Something along the lines of, 'The Jews created the Holocaust myth to get the sympathy and special treatment that is allowing them to rule the world.'

Boru

(September 12, 2015 at 7:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The Jews created the Holocaust myth to get the sympathy and special treatment that is allowing them to rule the world.'

Boru

That alone doesn't cut it. I'm a descendent of Holocaust survivors and victims. But even I get angry, if the Holocaust is reduced to jews being the only victims. Truth is, that all the groups of people, who didn't fit in the perfect Arian society were vicitms. So, reducing it to jews, kind of misses the point of the fundamental bigotry leading up to the slaughter. The Sinti and Roma, for example, are hardly mentioned altough belonging to these groups was an automatic death sentence also.

Truth is, they don't want bigotry to be the cause of slaughter, so they can continue on on their own bigoted ways.

(September 12, 2015 at 7:53 pm)abaris Wrote:

(September 12, 2015 at 7:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The Jews created the Holocaust myth to get the sympathy and special treatment that is allowing them to rule the world.'

Boru

That alone doesn't cut it. I'm a descendent of Holocaust survivors and victims. But even I get angry, if the Holocaust is reduced to jews being the only victims. Truth is, that all the groups of people, who didn't fit in the perfect Arian society were vicitms. So, reducing it to jews, kind of misses the point of the fundamental bigotry leading up to the slaughter. The Sinti and Roma, for example, are hardly mentioned altough belonging to these groups was an automatic death sentence also.

Truth is, they don't want bigotry to be the cause of slaughter, so they can continue on on their own bigoted ways.

Hear, hear.

And that the camps started with the homosexuals.



(At first, I put [ hide ] tags on the photo, above, but then I realized it would be too disrespectful to the victims to hide them in any way.)

You can see below the system they used to "tag" the various types. It's why the gay community uses the pink triangle as a symbol, to this day.

Just respond by citing Nazi questionings.
Not one of them said that the Holocaust didn't happen.
They claimed to have less involvement or similar, but they never claimed it never happen.

Why would they lie if it would benefit them?

(September 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: And that the camps started with the homosexuals.

No, they didn't. They started with communists and other political prisoners.

(September 12, 2015 at 8:30 pm)abaris Wrote:

(September 12, 2015 at 8:03 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: And that the camps started with the homosexuals.

No, they didn't. They started with communists and other political prisoners.

Depends on how you define it. They started going after political dissidents (mainly communists and academics who opposed fascism) in 1933, at which time they also began to target the "Homophiles". I simply left out the political dissidents as it didn't seem relevant to the issue of the racism of those who are holocaust deniers. But yes, the initial camps set up by the Nazis did begin to immediately incarcerate the groups you mentioned.

However, the concentration camps weren't invented from scratch, but rather were appropriated from a system of "alternate incarceration" that was set up as a parallel "civil commitment" system, for those who did not technically violate the law or would be difficult to prosecute, but were considered to have mental deficiencies that warranted segregation from society. It was a way of circumventing the pesky problem of giving full trials for undesirables. (We have a similar system in the USA, today, for pedophiles, where they are sent after their sentence expires, for never-ending "treatment".) They saw homosexuality, including women who were "anti-social" by rejecting men and refusing to have children, as mentally defective, and they put them in those places along with anyone else that was seen as a social burden (and often "turned in" by their own families), such as the mentally handicapped or insane, prior to the coming of the Nazis, but in smaller numbers-- the Nazis were masters of efficiency, I suppose you could say.

The Nazis had the bright idea to expand all that, and immediately began to make a big show of targeting communists and dissenting academics, as a means of shutting them up. But there was an already-extant history in Germany of trying to make society "better" by incarcerating the undesirables, and it was that system which the Nazis ideologically/sociologically capitalized on, in order to sell their product and consolidate power among the population.

It's hard to find citations for all this online, due to the "static" of the prevalence of the discussion of the Jewish Holocaust, both the actual history and the deniers, so I'm sorry I have not cited my sources, here; I read this in a book, in college, on the origins of the camps.

Your book probably didn't cover the "wild concentration camps". The ones being set up by the SA in 1933, in some derelict factory or school. They didn't go after the homosexuals before the mid 30ies and even the persecution of jews didn't really take off until 1935. They happened to be caught in the general persecution, but they hadn't been singled out yet.

From what I recall of the book (it was almost 20 years ago... sigh I'm old...), it mentioned the "wild" camps in the context of the ad hoc means they employed to "disappear" academics as a means of intimidating the (needed) remainder.

My own great grandparents fled in 1933, before that became impossible soon afterward, because my great grandfather was a mechanical engineering professor (they haven't told me where--I should ask my dad) and had written articles endorsing left-wing politics, though not outright communism as far as I have been told. My grandmother (dad's mom) was seven, at the time. Luckily, his skills were welcomed in the United States, and he worked as a codebreaker with the Navy.

I have family that fled Europe during the war. They were not Jewish, they were Magar (Gypsies) from eastern Austria. My grandmother had some newspaper clipping about them moving to Mount Angel Oregon to be with their German in-laws.

I don't agree with, but can kind of understand how people might believe that 9-11 was an inside job, or that the moon landing was faked (temporarily, I don't know anyone who believes it was perma-faked, just that it was faked by Kubrick so it looked like we went in 1969, and then we went a year or 2 later) though I know full on deniers are out there), or people who think the Illuminati or whatever are ruling the world, but to deny this....the deaths of so many people, when there is SO MUCH evidence, it makes me want to punch someone.

To be clear, I don't believe any of that crap, but I know people who do. I even know a lady who really believes the earth is hallow and reptile aliens live there and are the real rulers of the earth....or some bat shit thing. It has a name, but honestly, who can keep track of these lunatic ideas?

Honestly, thinking about all the people I know who believe batshit crazy things makes me depressed.

Quote:But even I get angry, if the Holocaust is reduced to jews being the only victims. Truth is, that all the groups of people, who didn't fit in the perfect Arian society were vicitms.

No argument at all, but it's a bloody rare Holocaust denying fuckwit who doesn't seem to have a particular grudge against the Jews. I mean that anti-Semitism seems to be the primary motivation of the denier, not that Jews were the only victims.

Apos for the misunderstanding.

Boru