(October 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm)KUSA Wrote:

(October 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm)Brian37 Wrote: CDC covers all types of heath issues, anything that can cause injury and death, they don't stop at bacteria and viruses.

Then perhaps they need to take a hard look at mentally ill people with violent tendencies.

That might well be part of the proposed study?

(October 5, 2015 at 1:16 pm)KUSA Wrote:

(October 5, 2015 at 8:17 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Other than mental health, what disease do you or anyone expect them to study?

Mental health should be the focus. Really, if there weren't so many crazy mofos here people might not be as interested in having a gun. I wish that I didn't have to worry about robbers, murderers, bad people in general. If they were gone for good then a hunting rifle might be enough for me.

Bottom line, get rid of crazy fuckers that want to inflict harm to others and there is no more problem.

I agree, we need more mental health identification and treatment. One of the problems with identifying people with serious mental health disorders is that they have learned to fly under the radar and function undetected in society. Often, they are only identified after the offense has been committed. Even if identified prior to the offense they fall through the cracks in treatment or refuse treatment all together. You can't force mental health treatment on an individual without some damn compelling evidence.

You guys and your talk about mental illness shows that you've been snowed by the media and Hollywood, and you're applying a negative stereotype that is not based in reality to a subset of the population.

Quote:Facts About Mental Illness and Violence

Fact 1: The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent.

Here is what researchers say about the link between mental illness and violence:

- "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)."

- "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."

- "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

-"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

Quote:Fact: The vast majority of people with mental health problems are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. Most people with mental illness are not violent and only 3%-5% of violent acts can be attributed to individuals living with a serious mental illness. In fact, people with severe mental illnesses are over 10 times more likely to be victims of violent crime than the general population. You probably know someone with a mental health problem and don't even realize it, because many people with mental health problems are highly active and productive members of our communities.

http://www.mentalhealth.gov/basics/myths-facts/

Now, some of these mass shooters may have a higher rate of mental illness than the general population, but the idea that our gun violence problem has anything to do with mental illness is absurd and fails to take into account that the lack of empathy combined with the me!-me!-me! mentality permeating through all of our culture is leading us to detach ourselves from the suffering of others.

So please, let's stop laying the blame on the mentally ill.  People without mental issues are quite frequently more than happy to kill others, too. There enough misconceptions about mental illness floating around out there, so let's stop contributing to this one.

(October 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm)Faith No More Wrote: You guys and your talk about mental illness shows that you've been snowed by the media and Hollywood, and you're applying a negative stereotype that is not based in reality to a subset of the population.

Quote:Facts About Mental Illness and Violence

Fact 1: The vast majority of people with mental illness are not violent.

Here is what researchers say about the link between mental illness and violence:

- "Although studies suggest a link between mental illnesses and violence, the contribution of people with mental illnesses to overall rates of violence is small, and further, the magnitude of the relationship is greatly exaggerated in the minds of the general population (Institute of Medicine, 2006)."

- "…the vast majority of people who are violent do not suffer from mental illnesses (American Psychiatric Association, 1994)."

- "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

-"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

Quote:Fact: The vast majority of people with mental health problems are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. Most people with mental illness are not violent and only 3%-5% of violent acts can be attributed to individuals living with a serious mental illness. In fact, people with severe mental illnesses are over 10 times more likely to be victims of violent crime than the general population. You probably know someone with a mental health problem and don't even realize it, because many people with mental health problems are highly active and productive members of our communities.

http://www.mentalhealth.gov/basics/myths-facts/

Now, some of these mass shooters may have a higher rate of mental illness than the general population, but the idea that our gun violence problem has anything to do with mental illness is absurd and fails to take into account that the lack of empathy combined with the me!-me!-me! mentality permeating through all of our culture is leading us to detach ourselves from the suffering of others.

So please, let's stop laying the blame on the mentally ill.  People without mental issues are quite frequently more than happy to kill others, too.  There enough misconceptions about mental illness floating around out there, so let's stop contributing to this one.

I'm not laying blame on the mentally ill, but thanks for the assumption. My position is that if mental illness is a causality in some cases, then............

I agree that the mentally ill have a higher rate of victimization.

I'm going to stand on my position that we need more mental health identification and treatment

(October 5, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(October 5, 2015 at 1:14 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The second point is this notion of "self-defense."  Pure 'Murrican mythology. 

Not according to the study commissioned by the CDC, linked above.

There is not a lot of specificity there.

(October 5, 2015 at 3:30 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: I'm not laying blame on the mentally ill, but thanks for the assumption. My position is that if mental illness is a causality in some cases, then............

I agree that the mentally ill have a higher rate of victimization.

I'm going to stand on my position that we need more mental health identification and treatment

I didn't assume anything.  In fact, you were never mentioned specifically, so it looks like the assumption was all yours.:p  It has been mentioned multiple times by multiple people in this thread and others that treating the mentally would be a solution for gun violence, so I thought I would counter that.  For the record, I didn't consider you in that group.

I agree that we need more mental health identification and treatment. It goes well beyond that in that our whole approach to mental health has to change, but those are two big problems.  I live in a city with roughly 40,000 people, and the city didn't even offer pyschiatric care until 2005.  Now that they do offer it, it's woefully inadequate.  But I could go on and on about the subject...

While I do think that mental health is a very important topic for american discussion... I don't think that the place to really hash it out is in the terms of violence that persons with mental illnesses perpetrate. Self-harm comes much more to mind with mental illnesses, as does suicide, and also disability.

It's, hah... actually harder to do some things, for example, shooting people... with a disability that turns a person inward. Sure... it's possible that you could give someone schizophrenic a gun, or they could find one, or they could even seek one... but the statistics suggest that the first person they'll use that thing on is either themselves.... or, say they're experiencing the double positive symptoms of paranoia and hallucination: those in their *immediate* vicinity.

Otherwise, they're going to have a hard time simply navigating to where they might want to go to kill someone (if under the particular influence of their mind garbling stuff). Mentally ill people definitely shouldn't have guns, though... because they have a damn good shot of killing themselves, or hurting someone else (in the immediate vicinity) whom they do not recognize as themselves any longer. It takes a lot of will to get up, get a gun, go outside, navigate a city, arrive at the destination you wanted, and shoot people (or, more likely, a person) up... have to be pretty stable to maintain something like that.

....

Calculation is the sane man's game.

(October 5, 2015 at 3:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(October 5, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: Not according to the study commissioned by the CDC, linked above.

There is not a lot of specificity there.

A fair objection, probably due to the fact that a "defensive gun use" need not involve any triggers being pulled. But even a pro-regulation organization cites 47,000 per year. That seems a bit large to be myth.

(October 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm)Faith No More Wrote: People without mental issues are quite frequently more than happy to kill others, too.

I would argue that they are mentally ill and it is evidenced by the fact that they are violent.

All of us have some form of violent tendencies when placed in certain situations. However, it is abnormal to want to kill masses of people especially if you don't even know them. Think about it.

(October 5, 2015 at 4:56 pm)Violet Wrote: While I do think that mental health is a very important topic for american discussion... I don't think that the place to really hash it out is in the terms of violence that persons with mental illnesses perpetrate. Self-harm comes much more to mind with mental illnesses, as does suicide, and also disability.

It's, hah... actually harder to do some things, for example, shooting people... with a disability that turns a person inward. Sure... it's possible that you could give someone schizophrenic a gun, or they could find one, or they could even seek one... but the statistics suggest that the first person they'll use that thing on is either themselves.... or, say they're experiencing the double positive symptoms of paranoia and hallucination: those in their *immediate* vicinity.

Otherwise, they're going to have a hard time simply navigating to where they might want to go to kill someone (if under the particular influence of their mind garbling stuff). Mentally ill people definitely shouldn't have guns, though... because they have a damn good shot of killing themselves, or hurting someone else (in the immediate vicinity) whom they do not recognize as themselves any longer. It takes a lot of will to get up, get a gun, go outside, navigate a city, arrive at the destination you wanted, and shoot people (or, more likely, a person) up... have to be pretty stable to maintain something like that.

....

Calculation is the sane man's game.

So you think all these mass shooters are sane? What the hell?