(December 1, 2010 at 4:53 pm)Thor Wrote: You can't compare historical figures who led ordinary lives with someone who supposedly pulled off incredible supernatural feats. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Thank you. It's not said enough. [blows kiss]

(December 1, 2010 at 5:00 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote:

(December 1, 2010 at 4:53 pm)Thor Wrote: You can't compare historical figures who led ordinary lives with someone who supposedly pulled off incredible supernatural feats. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Thank you. It's not said enough. [blows kiss]

Awwww... you made me blush!

DeistPaladin and Thor

I will be happy to respond to your question/challanges, but please list them one at a time. I find it difficult to respond to so many at one time.

(December 2, 2010 at 1:44 pm)Chapabel Wrote: DeistPaladin and Thor

I will be happy to respond to your question/challanges, but please list them one at a time. I find it difficult to respond to so many at one time.

I've got one.

Define god.

I John 1:5...God is Light

I John 4:8...God is Love

He is also my Rock, my fortress, and my Saviour.

(December 2, 2010 at 1:44 pm)Chapabel Wrote: DeistPaladin and Thor

I will be happy to respond to your question/challanges, but please list them one at a time. I find it difficult to respond to so many at one time.

As you may have noticed, my approach is to study the Bible itself. Even taking the claims of Christians about the Bible at face value, there are a lot of problems and inconsistencies.

This is a generous concession since:
1. The Bible has changed over time. The most famous example is Mark 16.
2. Pseudo epigraphy was a big problem back then. Only half of Paul's epistles are accepted as "authentic".
3. Interpolation was a big problem back then.
4. The earliest copies we have of NT parchments date to the 3rd century.
5. The whole issue with Paul seems especially fishy since he was originally the main prophet for Marcionite Christianity. Marcionites believed Jesus was a higher god, superior to and independent of the Jewish god. Paul, in the writings that come to us, does dispense with Jewish rites in favor of faith in Jesus but he strangely puts Jesus inferior to God at a number of points. This makes me suspicious that we're not getting the true writings of Paul and that Acts was a later work made to do to Paul what they did to John the Baptist.

Letting all of this go, we still have problems with the way the stories contradict each other.

Quote:1st Cor
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; ...
15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. ...
15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Questions:
1. What "scriptures"? The Gospels hadn't been written yet.
2. What "twelve"? Judas was dead and Thomas didn't see Jesus until 8 days later.
3. There were over 500 "brethren" (believers) who saw Jesus fly into the sky?
4. You've said, "born out of due time" means "miscarriage". What does that mean?
5. Where was the Jewish chief prosecutor, Paul, when Jesus was driving the priests so nuts they met on Passover Eve just to conspire against him?
6. Why would faithful Christians be in denial about the resurrection of Jesus only a few years after the event if it was such a matter of obvious recent reality, witnessed by hundreds who could testify what they saw? Why does Paul appeal to "scriptures" and not obvious historical reality?

Now compare to Acts

Quote:1:3 To whom (the apostles) also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

So we can confirm that there were 120 believers after Jesus had been carried into the sky. What happened to Paul's 380+ other believers?

And why does Acts say Jesus hung around for 40 days before the ascension and yet Luke's Gospel says Jesus flew up into the sky on the day of his resurrection and reunion with the disciples? I thought you said Luke was also the author of Acts?

Quote:Gospel of Luke
24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. ...
24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
24:34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. ...
24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. ...
24:50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

No contradictions?

There are no contradictions in the Bible...simply ignorance on man's behalf.

1. What "scriptures"? The Gospels hadn't been written yet.
Answer: The Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus referred to Jonah as an example of rising the third day. Also Ps.16:10-11

2. What "twelve"? Judas was dead and Thomas didn't see Jesus until 8 days later.
Answer: The original disciples were simply called "The Twelve". Matt.26:20, 47; Mark 4:10; Luke 8:1; John 20:24.

3. There were over 500 "brethren" (believers) who saw Jesus fly into the sky?
Answer: This is not correct. The Bible does not say 500 saw Him ascend.

4. You've said, "born out of due time" means "miscarriage". What does that mean?
Answer: I already told you...Paul did not feel worthy to be a disciple. As John Gill states: "one born out of due time: or "as an abortive"; not that he was really one, but like one: several learned interpreters think the apostle refers to a proverbial way of speaking among the common people at Rome, who used to call such supernumerary senators in the times of Augustus Caesar, who got into the senate house by favour or bribery, "abortives", they being generally very unworthy persons; and therefore calls himself by this name, as being in his own opinion a supernumerary apostle, and very unworthy of that office"

5. Where was the Jewish chief prosecutor, Paul, when Jesus was driving the priests so nuts they met on Passover Eve just to conspire against him?
Answer: I do not know. The Bible is silent on this issue. Many of the experts believe Saul had not reached a position of authority during Jesus' ministry.

6. Why would faithful Christians be in denial about the resurrection of Jesus only a few years after the event if it was such a matter of obvious recent reality, witnessed by hundreds who could testify what they saw? Why does Paul appeal to "scriptures" and not obvious historical reality?
Answer: These verses do not state anyone was denying the resurrection of Jesus. Their concern was their own resurrection from the dead. Read the verses again.

7. So we can confirm that there were 120 believers after Jesus had been carried into the sky. What happened to Paul's 380+ other believers?
Answer: Remember that when Jesus was crucified Jews from all over the nation came to Jerusalem for the Passover. Jesus arose two days after this celebration. The most likely answer is that the 500 were there from out of town. Jesus ascended 40 days after His resurrection...most folks had gone home. Now this is just speculation on my part...the Bible does not say. I fail to see why this is such a hang-up for you. Maybe the other 380 couldn't make it to that particular supper that night.

8. And why does Acts say Jesus hung around for 40 days before the ascension and yet Luke's Gospel says Jesus flew up into the sky on the day of his resurrection and reunion with the disciples?
Answer: The Bible does not say in Luke that He ascended the day of His resurrection. It says He went to Emmaus the same day He arose. Luke is silent concerning what day He ascended.

Nope. No contradictions.

(December 2, 2010 at 2:55 pm)Chapabel Wrote: I John 1:5...God is Light

I John 4:8...God is Love

He is also my Rock, my fortress, and my Saviour.

And you illusion.

(December 2, 2010 at 3:48 pm)Chapabel Wrote: There are no contradictions in the Bible...simply ignorance on man's behalf.

No contradictions? Wow!

Okay, here's a simple one:

Man was created AFTER the other animals -

Genesis
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man was created BEFORE the other animals -

Genesis
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

How is this not a contradiction?

Also, since you said you use the Bible to guide your life, I must ask if you would ever own a slave. If not, why not?

(December 2, 2010 at 4:14 pm)Thor Wrote:

(December 2, 2010 at 3:48 pm)Chapabel Wrote: There are no contradictions in the Bible...simply ignorance on man's behalf.

No contradictions? Wow!

Okay, here's a simple one:

Man was created AFTER the other animals -

Genesis
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Man was created BEFORE the other animals -

Genesis
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

How is this not a contradiction?

Also, since you said you use the Bible to guide your life, I must ask if you would ever own a slave. If not, why not?

Good question. Man was God's final creation. We are His masterpiece. Chapter 2 of Genesis gives the details of that final day of creation. Many theologians believe God created more animals for Adam to name, in order to show Adam 1) God was all powerful. 2) God was giving man a free will. (ie in naming the animals)

No, I do not own slaves nor have I ever...I don't need any...I have two kids. The Bible does not command anyone to own slaves. Jews became slaves to other Jews when they could not repay a debt. They worked it off. When the debt was paid, they were free to leave. They had the option of remaining a slave if they chose to though.

Also you must understand the Biblical doctrine of dispensationalism. God dealt with different people in different ways in different times throughout the Bible.