(October 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:02 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm not talking about religions, I was referring to evidence for gods. No Dolphinetics, please.

It doesn't matter what you are talking about, your argument assumes if there is proof of God or exactly what type of God he is, humanity would all believe in that God and there would be no Atheists. But for such structure of an argument to be true, humanity needs to be sincere towards proofs that they are honest enough to accept them when presented with such proofs. The fact that humanity follows false religions even though there is proofs many of them are false, suggests, this is not the case. So your argument would be special pleading regardless if you are talking about religions or not.

do you honestly believe the religion of Islam has made the world a better place and created love and unity among people in this world ? what about all the many wars involving your religion ? isnt war the opposite of peace and the opposite of what God wants ?

(October 20, 2015 at 9:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think Atheists are in double think. They believe in God and disbelieve in him at the same time, much like they believe they are souls but deny it, they act as if they are souls and act as if they are not.

It's which part of the self they will believe, the uncleanness which doubts God or the pure blessed part that is attached to God, is a trial.

With sincere reflection, everything becomes easy.

There is many evidence and arguments for God as well, but if a soul doesn't want to believe in God, no matter what proofs are presented it won't submit and no matter how deep penetrating the reminder of the light takes place in the soul, it takes a truthful submitting heart to accept their Lord and Master.

"Whoever believes in God, guides his heart aright" - Quran.

"And from humans are those who say they believe in God and the last day, and they are not believers" -Quran

I think you're just lying about believing in god

(October 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:02 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I'm not talking about religions, I was referring to evidence for gods. No Dolphinetics, please.

It doesn't matter what you are talking about, your argument assumes if there is proof of God or exactly what type of God he is, humanity would all believe in that God and there would be no Atheists. But for such structure of an argument to be true, humanity needs to be sincere towards proofs that they are honest enough to accept them when presented with such proofs. The fact that humanity follows false religions even though there is proofs many of them are false, suggests, this is not the case. So your argument would be special pleading regardless if you are talking about religions or not.

What special pleading are you talking about? I have a sneaking feeling you don't know what the term means.

Ok, let's take this slowly. The question was asked:

(October 20, 2015 at 10:09 pm)Blondie Wrote: Is it that there is just simply know proof or you just don't know?

To which I responded:

(October 20, 2015 at 10:17 pm)Stimbo Wrote: If there was proof, there would be no atheists. It's not our fault that what we're offered, again and again, isn't the 'proof' it's purported to be. This is all without going into the difference between proof and evidence, of course.

Remember that proof is not the same as evidence, even in a non-mathematical sense; prove your god exists and I will no longer be an atheist, since my position at present is one of witholding belief in such things until sufficient compelling evidence is presented. I made the base assumption that this would hold true for atheists in general, given our nature as rationalists (to varying degrees).

That's it. That is the whole of my 'argument'. Have your pet god be proven, atheism goes away.

Where is the special pleading?

(October 20, 2015 at 11:27 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It doesn't matter what you are talking about, your argument assumes if there is proof of God or exactly what type of God he is, humanity would all believe in that God and there would be no Atheists. But for such structure of an argument to be true, humanity needs to be sincere towards proofs that they are honest enough to accept them when presented with such proofs. The fact that humanity follows false religions even though there is proofs many of them are false, suggests, this is not the case. So your argument would be special pleading regardless if you are talking about religions or not.

What special pleading are you talking about? I have a sneaking feeling you don't know what the term means.

Ok, let's take this slowly. The question was asked:

(October 20, 2015 at 10:09 pm)Blondie Wrote: Is it that there is just simply know proof or you just don't know?

To which I responded:

(October 20, 2015 at 10:17 pm)Stimbo Wrote: If there was proof, there would be no atheists. It's not our fault that what we're offered, again and again, isn't the 'proof' it's purported to be. This is all without going into the difference between proof and evidence, of course.

Remember that proof is not the same as evidence, even in a non-mathematical sense; prove your god exists and I will no longer be an atheist, since my position at present is one of witholding belief in such things until sufficient compelling evidence is presented. I made the base assumption that this would hold true for atheists in general, given our nature as rationalists (to varying degrees).

That's it. That is the whole of my 'argument'. Have your pet god be proven, atheism goes away.

Where is the special pleading?

Atheism will go away, eventually. However, your special pleading is that Atheists are the only rational ones who accept proofs while other humans it doesn't matter if they do or not. You have to show why Atheists hold this unique status as sincere to the truth that other humans don't. Otherwise, it is special pleading.

(October 20, 2015 at 11:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:27 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What special pleading are you talking about? I have a sneaking feeling you don't know what the term means.

Ok, let's take this slowly. The question was asked:


To which I responded:


Remember that proof is not the same as evidence, even in a non-mathematical sense; prove your god exists and I will no longer be an atheist, since my position at present is one of witholding belief in such things until sufficient compelling evidence is presented. I made the base assumption that this would hold true for atheists in general, given our nature as rationalists (to varying degrees).

That's it. That is the whole of my 'argument'. Have your pet god be proven, atheism goes away.

Where is the special pleading?

Atheism will go away, eventually. However, your special pleading is that Atheists are the only rational ones who accept proofs while other humans it doesn't matter if they do or not. You have to show why Atheists hold this unique status as sincere to the truth that other humans don't. Otherwise, it is special pleading.

No atheism won't go away.

It's the default position.  The god concept is something that has to be taught.

Therefore, as we see in many countries, including Muslim majority countries (though they have to be careful there) the atheist community is growing.

We're on the cusp of religion losing its majority hold over people.  Several more generations and, if we haven't wiped each other out, we're going to see a huge change in world demographics, I believe.

(October 20, 2015 at 11:22 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: It doesn't matter what you are talking about, your argument assumes if there is proof of God or exactly what type of God he is, humanity would all believe in that God and there would be no Atheists. But for such structure of an argument to be true, humanity needs to be sincere towards proofs that they are honest enough to accept them when presented with such proofs. The fact that humanity follows false religions even though there is proofs many of them are false, suggests, this is not the case. So your argument would be special pleading regardless if you are talking about religions or not.

do you honestly believe the religion of Islam has made the world a better place and created love and unity among people in this world ? what about all the many wars involving your religion ? isnt war the opposite of peace and the opposite of what God wants ?

The Jews were trusted with the Prophets, but they didn't help them and corrupted their religion. Then that nation became a burden to the world as other nations that corrupted God's revelation did.  Although God took it upon himself to safeguard the Quran, it's interpretation was so bad and that it was corrupted in meaning (not in words) so bad, and not put into practice till this day,  that the people clinging to the book became a burden to the world and source of corruption and darkness. 

Even the Shia don't hold the light of the Quran and the family of Mohammad as it ought to be held, because they didn't help the Imams when they required their help, but were cowards in love with the world.

The followers of the path of the name/face of God and the designated Guides of God, are in fact, very few. You don't know them. 

All we can do is try our best to not distort the Quran and succumb to corruption and evil of the dark forces regarding it and regarding the religion. As well, we ought to be careful not to support injustice no matter which leader it is.

Work for justice, peace, and spirituality (recognition of God's Name) and love towards God, his light, and degrees of his light in all creation.

We do our best, but no one has the right to claim they are representatives of the true religion this day. The Quran is among the people but not among them. The people of the Quran are among them people but not among them. 

Pray earnestly with Suratal Fatiha and turn to God frequently, and hopefully, you will be lead by the divine Guide of our time.

Thanks for the laugh, OP. I prefer to think you're ahead of your time with your comedy.

(October 20, 2015 at 11:01 pm)Blondie Wrote: I know we got off on the wrong foot. I think I can help you out on the Santa Claus one.  Just sit out multiple cameras throughout the house and record it on Christmas eve and see if a drunk strange man shows up who supposedly comes down the the chimney and wonders around your house while you are sleeping with your pistol ready to go.  Git-R-Done.

Hey I may be able to give convincing evidence of the absence of Santa Claus... but I can't prove that I don't secretly believe in him and think he's just amazing at hide-n-seek !!



Point is I  can't prove that I don't believe something.

(October 20, 2015 at 11:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:22 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: do you honestly believe the religion of Islam has made the world a better place and created love and unity among people in this world ? what about all the many wars involving your religion ? isnt war the opposite of peace and the opposite of what God wants ?

The Jews were trusted with the Prophets, but they didn't help them and corrupted their religion. Then that nation became a burden to the world as other nations that corrupted God's revelation did.  Although God took it upon himself to safeguard the Quran, it's interpretation was so bad and that it was corrupted in meaning (not in words) so bad, and not put into practice till this day,  that the people clinging to the book became a burden to the world and source of corruption and darkness. 

Even the Shia don't hold the light of the Quran and the family of Mohammad as it ought to be held, because they didn't help the Imams when they required their help, but were cowards in love with the world.

The followers of the path of the name/face of God and the designated Guides of God, are in fact, very few. You don't know them. 

All we can do is try our best to not distort the Quran and succumb to corruption and evil of the dark forces regarding it and regarding the religion. As well, we ought to be careful not to support injustice no matter which leader it is.

Work for justice, peace, and spirituality (recognition of God's Name) and love towards God, his light, and degrees of his light in all creation.

We do our best, but no one has the right to claim they are representatives of the true religion this day. The Quran is among the people but not among them. The people of the Quran are among them people but not among them. 

Pray earnestly with Suratal Fatiha and turn to God frequently, and hopefully, you will be lead by the divine Guide of our time.

See Christians who proselytise to us, this is what you sound like to us.

(October 20, 2015 at 11:20 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The Quran designates the family of Mohammad (42:23/25:57) as the path towards God, in which attachment and love to them leads straight to God.

Exactly who the family of Mohammad is to be known through hadiths.

There is only one set of hadiths naming all his successors - and we can know - that being commanded to obey them (4:59), they would be named and designated by God and his Prophet. As such the hadiths naming the 12 Imams and numbering them stand as a proof for all humans who believe in the Quran.

No one is saying we should fight over this issue:

"And if a party of you believe and another party don't believe then wait patiently till God judges between us with truth and God is the best of judges".-Quran

The hadith literature is based on spoken reports that were in circulation in society and gathered into large collections during the 8th and 9th centuries, generations after the death of Muhammad

Unlike the Quran itself, which was compiled under the official direction of the early Islamic State in Medinah, the hadith reports were not compiled by a central authority.

so you are going to trust rumors and spoken "reports"  ... these hadiths .... that who knows who contributed to collected generations after Muhammad ? and base this constant fighting on the information contained in one of these highly questionable word of mouth hadiths?