(October 13, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(October 13, 2015 at 11:19 am)Mr Greene Wrote: Meh, the guy knew it was illegal and did it anyway; if you're not willing to suffer the penalty, don't commit the crime.
Yes it may be an injustice in our estimation but it isn't our country.
If the bottle had been planted by the cops (which isn't unheard of) he might have a case beyond that this is just so much whining.

Cultral relativism belongs in the bin. How is giving a guy in his 70s 360 lashes both just and fair in any sense of those words?

What this is is exactly as min said, a double standard whereby foreigners in Saudi are convicted with overly harsh sentences for minor transgressions which are routinely committed by Saudis. Forget carrying a bottle of wine, what about countless murders and rapes committed against de facto slave labour by Saudis both home and abroad?

It's utter nonsense and needs to be confronted.

In this particular case the guy was a dummy.  He had been in Saudi Arabia for years.  His wife left to return home because she got sick.  He should have gone with her because he's well past their retirement age.  There's probably some monkey motion going on there below the surface.

(October 18, 2015 at 12:30 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(October 13, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Cultral relativism belongs in the bin. How is giving a guy in his 70s 360 lashes both just and fair in any sense of those words?

What this is is exactly as min said, a double standard whereby foreigners in Saudi are convicted with overly harsh sentences for minor transgressions which are routinely committed by Saudis. Forget carrying a bottle of wine, what about countless murders and rapes committed against de facto slave labour by Saudis both home and abroad?

It's utter nonsense and needs to be confronted.

In this particular case the guy was a dummy.  He had been in Saudi Arabia for years.  His wife left to return home because she got sick.  He should have gone with her because he's well past their retirement age.  There's probably some monkey motion going on there below the surface.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-37261-po...pid1082893

(October 13, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(October 13, 2015 at 11:19 am)Mr Greene Wrote: Meh, the guy knew it was illegal and did it anyway; if you're not willing to suffer the penalty, don't commit the crime.
Yes it may be an injustice in our estimation but it isn't our country.
If the bottle had been planted by the cops (which isn't unheard of) he might have a case beyond that this is just so much whining.

Cultral relativism belongs in the bin. How is giving a guy in his 70s 360 lashes both just and fair in any sense of those words?

What this is is exactly as min said, a double standard whereby foreigners in Saudi are convicted with overly harsh sentences for minor transgressions which are routinely committed by Saudis. Forget carrying a bottle of wine, what about countless murders and rapes committed against de facto slave labour by Saudis both home and abroad?

It's utter nonsense and needs to be confronted.

The verdict seems solid. 
There is a case to commute the sentence and protest the barbarity of it (as with all forms of capital and corporal punishment) but the guy knew full well what he was risking the moment he picked up the bottle.
Trying to claim he didn't commit a crime is inane.

(October 22, 2015 at 9:09 am)Mr Greene Wrote:

(October 13, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote: Cultral relativism belongs in the bin. How is giving a guy in his 70s 360 lashes both just and fair in any sense of those words?

What this is is exactly as min said, a double standard whereby foreigners in Saudi are convicted with overly harsh sentences for minor transgressions which are routinely committed by Saudis. Forget carrying a bottle of wine, what about countless murders and rapes committed against de facto slave labour by Saudis both home and abroad?

It's utter nonsense and needs to be confronted.

The verdict seems solid. 
There is a case to commute the sentence and protest the barbarity of it (as with all forms of capital and corporal punishment) but the guy knew full well what he was risking the moment he picked up the bottle.
Trying to claim he didn't commit a crime is inane.

The point was that the cultural relativism of the 'crime' is equally insane as the punishment for the crime itself (hence the argument belonging in the bin). It should not be a crime, and even if we bracket out that, the punishment is ridiculous. Saudi's ultra-conservative Wahhabi Sharia law is OTT to the extreme, and no amount of pandering to 'it's their culture' is going to convince me otherwise. The guy should not be in prison and certainly should not be facing lashes (which I believe has since been rescinded though I am not 100% sure). This further brackets out the fact that SA's interpretation and enforcement of these punishments is also hypocritical and xenophobic. Natives could be guilty of comitting the exact same 'crime' and get off without so much as a notice from the Saudi religious police. If you're anything other than a native then expect the harshest of punishments.

Nobody insinuated that it wasn't a crime in Saudi. What is being argued is that it shouldn't be a crime at all. In that respect, it is indeed not a crime.

(October 13, 2015 at 5:07 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34513096

What was his crime? A rape? A murder?

No, his crime was that he was caught by religious police with a bottle of home made wine in his car.

Remember, Saudi Arabia has recently been appointed to serve on the UN Human Rights Council.

If the guy had kept his wine at his house and not put it into his car to transport it he would have been fine. Alcohol may be against the law in Saudi, but the government doesn't care what you brew so long as you don't take it outside your house.

(October 13, 2015 at 5:18 am)robvalue Wrote: I find myself saying this a lot lately: if God/Allah/Jesus/whoever has a problem with something, leave them to sort it out themselves. Every time you act on their behalf, you're contradicting your belief that they are actually real and have any power.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've tried to point this out to Christians campaigning against gay marriage.

God doesn't need your help, guys, remember?

All you do is send the message that you don't have any faith in God's ability to deal with people by Himself.

Plus, there is something especially unsavoury about Theists
who not only feel the need to impose God's Law onto others via Civil Law,

but who claim that they do so because they're doing it for God
...when they are patently doing it for the sake of their own comfort level.

(especially Christians,
to whom Jesus never gave any instruction to make His teachings into Civil Law,
but took that upon themselves)

I imagine their God would be pretty pissed at followers doing stuff,
ostensibly in His name,
but when it's really to serve themselves.

It's akin to the moneychangers in the Temple.

Using God's name for their own interests.

(much in the way my sister claims to be on my mother's side,
but it is only to serve herself, incidentally).

How stupid this guy may be is not the issue.

(October 23, 2015 at 3:49 am)robvalue Wrote: How stupid this guy may be is not the issue.

Doesn't matter how many times you say that, Rob.

(October 22, 2015 at 11:00 am)Pandæmonium Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 9:09 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The verdict seems solid. 
There is a case to commute the sentence and protest the barbarity of it (as with all forms of capital and corporal punishment) but the guy knew full well what he was risking the moment he picked up the bottle.
Trying to claim he didn't commit a crime is inane.

The point was that the cultural relativism of the 'crime' is equally insane as the punishment for the crime itself (hence the argument belonging in the bin). It should not be a crime, and even if we bracket out that, the punishment is ridiculous.
Nobody insinuated that it wasn't a crime in Saudi. What is being argued is that it shouldn't be a crime at all. In that respect, it is indeed not a crime.

It is cultural relativism to acknowledge that sovereign countries set their own laws?
Last I heard SA wasn't a protectorate, You want to promote cultural imperialism, that's your problem.

(October 23, 2015 at 8:25 am)Mr Greene Wrote:

(October 22, 2015 at 11:00 am)Pandæmonium Wrote: The point was that the cultural relativism of the 'crime' is equally insane as the punishment for the crime itself (hence the argument belonging in the bin). It should not be a crime, and even if we bracket out that, the punishment is ridiculous.
Nobody insinuated that it wasn't a crime in Saudi. What is being argued is that it shouldn't be a crime at all. In that respect, it is indeed not a crime.

It is cultural relativism to acknowledge that sovereign countries set their own laws?
Last I heard SA wasn't a protectorate, You want to promote cultural imperialism, that's your problem.

I'm sorry but that's just not the point I'm making at all. No strawmannin' gonna happen in this here thread you hear? ^_^

This is an argument from basic human decency and empathy. It's an argument that says that effectively killing someone for nothing ain't got a place (or ought not to have a place) in the 21st century, regardless of what area or indeed 'culture' you're from.

Standing up to cruel and barbaric forms of punishment is not a vice. Pointing out a state's insane (and hypocritical) use of corporal punishment is not 'cultural imperialism' or whatever lame excuse for political discourse that implies, regardless of whether the state is sovereign.

Again, to keep on fucking reiterating because it seems only a couple of people seem to get this fucking easy to understand point. My issue is not the fact that the 'crime' was committed. I understand there are these things called states, and these things have this idea of 'law', and this law thing generally has a thing called 'punishment' if one should break them. Now we've got the primary school colouring book shit out of the fucking way, the point is the barbarism of making something as mundane as carrying a bottle of alcohol around in a car not just a crime, but a crime punishable by death, flying in the face of modern discourses on ethics and human rights, not to mention ignoring the various instances where Saudi's themselves commit the same crime (and worse) with no punishments, both in SA and abroad (notably in cities like London). Do I think the guy was stupid for doing it? Yes, but ultimately that's got nothing to do with the OP or this post.

Now can we please move past the point nobody was making and actually start talking about the issue being repeatedly iterated and yet repeatedly ignored? Let me paste a link to something that makes my point much more succinctly:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-37261-po...pid1092764

EDIT: You know what, I fucking give up. If people respond saying "yeah but it's a crime in Saudi, he should know better" or "you don't get to dictate the laws in other states" or whatever irrelevant horseshit, I'm just going to disregard it and not reply. Ain't got time to waste defending a point I wasn't even making. Fuck sake. Napo, if you're out there reading this, I understand you pain!