Considering the attitude which various Republican politicians have taken towards science in the last quarter of a century. I am not surprised so few American scientists would support the Republicans.

The sort of views some Republican politicians take are only shared in Australia by politicians from small Christian parties that only get elected because of proportion representation voting system we have.

(December 13, 2010 at 12:47 am)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: You... do realize most teachers actually do more work than their on-job workhours, right?

Bullshit. At most they spend a little time getting supplies at the teacher supply store during their off hours. I don't know about every district, but the one whom with the educators I have interacted with tell me they allow teachers two hours a week of on-duty hours for supply runs. Lesson plans? You get an hour out of each day for that purpose. Football games and the like where you are required to attend? Comp time.

Quote:You... do realize most teachers don't get paid for the time they're not teaching, right?

Bullshit. Most teachers are on a yearly salary. $30000 a year is for the full year. Most have an option of having that divided into paychecks through out the school year, none in the summer, and dividing it up over the entire year. So if you are not working the 3 months of summer vacation, you still get a paycheck every payday. The week off for xmas? Paid. The week off for Tgiving? Paid.

Quote:So... yeah, four years of college education to get paid for, as you say, 6 hour days for 38 week a year.
Where most of the work you have to deal with must be done outside of regular school hours so you can trudge to work less than most people with regular 9 to 5 jobs to teach a group of snotty unappreciative children so they can earn more money working at a factory as a high school or college dropout.

Again I call bullshit. Most of the work you deal with is NOT outside normal buisness hours. Any required duties after hours are compensated thru comp. time. Snotty unappreciative customers? Oh waaaa waaaa waaaa... I'd bet a dime to a box of doughnuts most people will claim the work they do is for some "snotty, unappreciative" person.

Work at a factory for more money? Really? Please hook me up with this factory you speak of that will hire a high school drop out for $34 an hour and all the paid for bennys afforded to our teachers plus a paid 3 month yearly vacation.

I once had a job that paid more actual dollars on the check than these educators and I have no college education. However my paid vacation time was 30 days and that had to be broken down into 3 increments. Can't take it all at once. Xmas? nope, gotta work. Tgiving? Nope, gotta work. Also I had to live in the desert of Iraq and work in war conditions to get it, for a minimum of 84 hours a week, minimum. Most weeks were around 120 hours for that fixed salary. Oh, and no free health club memberships, no employer paid health insurance or life insurance. The only extra freebie provided was 60mm mortor shells dropped around you while performing your duties.

I call bullshit as I maintain any 'high school drop out' who pulls in more than a teacher is working for it. Either by major hours put in or because it is a highly dangerous life threating work.

I would agree with your 'punch in the face' suggestion but only when they are on the T.V. or in a picket line crying and whining that they don't get paid enough and want more money.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: Bullshit. At most they spend a little time getting supplies at the teacher supply store during their off hours. I don't know about every district, but the one whom with the educators I have interacted with tell me they allow teachers two hours a week of on-duty hours for supply runs. Lesson plans? You get an hour out of each day for that purpose. Football games and the like where you are required to attend? Comp time.

Wow. Three bonus hours a week?
You get paid to have all that time for supply runs and preparation? That must make the <40 hour pay week and the fact that you're not getting paid for 1/4 of an entire year totally worth it.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: Bullshit. Most teachers are on a yearly salary. $30000 a year is for the full year. Most have an option of having that divided into paychecks through out the school year, none in the summer, and dividing it up over the entire year. So if you are not working the 3 months of summer vacation, you still get a paycheck every payday. The week off for xmas? Paid. The week off for Tgiving? Paid.

Really? Since when? Where are you getting this information because I've taken college teaching courses and interacted with dozens from my area who actually say otherwise. You don't get paid on time off. To do that, you need to actually work. You don't get paid every single goddamn week of the year for doing jack shit.
That's why most teachers have to hope that they have the option to teach summer courses to make up for that fact.
And fuck no they don't get paid for 3 months of summer vacation. No one fucking gets paid for 3 months summer vacation.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: Again I call bullshit. Most of the work you deal with is NOT outside normal buisness hours. Any required duties after hours are compensated thru comp. time. Snotty unappreciative customers? Oh waaaa waaaa waaaa... I'd bet a dime to a box of doughnuts most people will claim the work they do is for some "snotty, unappreciative" person.

Call it all you want. I don't know what teachers you're talking about but I know that the vast majority of teachers don't get the treatment you described. Maybe their pay is much better after ten years of teaching and with some of the highest schoolastic degrees you can take, but they're still underpaid for their profession and the amount of work they do, and the education they have, which you appear to be significantly underestimating.

Be that as it may, compared to jobs with similar education and schoolastic requirements to attain, they're still living on the same pay line as jobs with vastly fewer requirements, equal or more pay, more work hours in the year, and better job security.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: Work at a factory for more money? Really? Please hook me up with this factory you speak of that will hire a high school drop out for $34 an hour and all the paid for bennys afforded to our teachers plus a paid 3 month yearly vacation.

34$ an hour for 365 days a year doesn't add up to 30k average yearly salary, Dot.
Maybe for the highest paid teachers in the country, but certainly not on average.
Teachers don't get paid for having 3 months off. That's what every educator that has discussed pay with me has straight up told me, as well as the people who actually teach people to become teachers. I know this because I've taken the actual classes.
No one is in this job for the money or the job security.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: I once had a job that paid more actual dollars on the check than these educators and I have no college education. However my paid vacation time was 30 days and that had to be broken down into 3 increments. Can't take it all at once. Xmas? nope, gotta work. Tgiving? Nope, gotta work. Also I had to live in the desert of Iraq and work in war conditions to get it, for a minimum of 84 hours a week, minimum. Most weeks were around 120 hours for that fixed salary. Oh, and no free health club memberships, no employer paid health insurance or life insurance. The only extra freebie provided was 60mm mortor shells dropped around you while performing your duties.

So jobs exist where you have to physically work insane hours/week for good pay (only because you're working 84-120 hours a week) with no holiday vacation, no benefits, and only a week's additional paid vacation compared to most jobs (assuming 2 week is the average). In addition, of course, to living in a war zone.
That you can take with no education requirements, I assume beyond a high school education.

Yeah, I get that there are much harder jobs in the world than teaching. I don't see what this has to do with anything.

(December 13, 2010 at 10:17 am)Dotard Wrote: I call bullshit as I maintain any 'high school drop out' who pulls in more than a teacher is working for it. Either by major hours put in or because it is a highly dangerous life threating work.

Right right, it's not really work if it's not physical labor.
Cry me a goddamn river, as you so eloquently put it.

Dotard is one of those people who'd rather see the system in black and white states, where education and the costs to run up to it are not even close to hard labor...

Though, I note that for every thousand hard laborers, there be one teacher or so. If being a teacher was so easy, then I wonder why there ain't more people in this racket...

Oh wait - you actually have to work hard to get there and success is poorly defined, handicapped by diminishing funding, monstrous students and that which spawned them and cludgy self obsessed teachers unions.

Seems to me to be a bad deal. At least hard labor doesn't lie about being abused...

(December 14, 2010 at 5:56 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Dotard is one of those people who'd rather see the system in black and white states, where education and the costs to run up to it are not even close to hard labor...

Though, I note that for every thousand hard laborers, there be one teacher or so. If being a teacher was so easy, then I wonder why there ain't more people in this racket...

Oh wait - you actually have to work hard to get there and success is poorly defined, handicapped by diminishing funding, monstrous students and that which spawned them and cludgy self obsessed teachers unions.

Seems to me to be a bad deal. At least hard labor doesn't lie about being abused...

There is a reason most new teachers *leave the profession* that they got a degree for within 5 years. Teaching is hard work & not just anyone can do it well.

However, any idiot can use a shovel.

(December 14, 2010 at 5:56 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Dotard is one of those people who'd rather see the system in black and white states, where education and the costs to run up to it are not even close to hard labor...

...

In his system, soon everyone will lack the skill to do anything but hard manual labor.

(December 13, 2010 at 2:30 pm)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: Wow. Three bonus hours a week?
You get paid to have all that time for supply runs and preparation? That must make the <40 hour pay week and the fact that you're not getting paid for 1/4 of an entire year totally worth it. [/i]

That's seven hours a week. More than a 'full' workday. Not getting paid? You are getting paid. You can elect to have your annual salary distributed during your working time or distributed through out the year. Either way it's an annual salary. You are paid.

Quote:Really? Since when? Where are you getting this information because I've taken college teaching courses and interacted with dozens from my area who actually say otherwise.

Same place you got yours. Interacting with dozens from my area. It may just be a case of semantics? Yearly salary of $30000 a year. Some look at it and say that's for the working time, they rest is unpaid, Woah is me. Others look and say that's for the entire year, I get three months vacation. Yay for me!

Quote:And fuck no they don't get paid for 3 months of summer vacation. No one fucking gets paid for 3 months summer vacation.

It depends on the choice of distribution and how it is viewed as discribed above.

Quote:Call it all you want. I don't know what teachers you're talking about but I know that the vast majority of teachers don't get the treatment you described. Maybe their pay is much better after ten years of teaching and with some of the highest schoolastic degrees you can take, but they're still underpaid for their profession and the amount of work they do, and the education they have, which you appear to be significantly underestimating.

And the same, I don't know what teachers you are talking about. Yes, maybe I may be underestimating, but it is an equal possibility you may be overestimating.

Quote:34$ an hour for 365 days a year doesn't add up to 30k average yearly salary, Dot.

That figure was obtained by subtracting the three months off duty. I was looking for pay for actual hours worked. If you figure in those three months then the hourly rate is lower but you are looking at a three month paid vacation. We all know I suk at maths but I'm not that far off. $30,000 divided by 52 weeks is approx. $576 a week? Divided by 30 hours required to be on duty is close enough to call it $20 an hour with a paid three month vacation plus a paid week off for xmas, and a paid week off for Tgiving. Without the three months figured in is approx. $34 an hour.

Quote:Teachers don't get paid for having 3 months off. That's what every educator that has discussed pay with me has straight up told me,

We will pay you $34 an hour but you will be "laid-off" three months out of the year.
We will pay you $20 an hour and give you a three month paid vacation.

Your examples are taking the top choice. Mine are taking the bottom choice. Either way they still add up to the same end salary and you are on vacation three months out of twelve.

Quote:No one is in this job for the money or the job security.

I admitted my sample is quite small yet supported my contentions. The blanket required for that statement of yours would be quite large.

Quote:So jobs exist where you have to physically work insane hours/week for good pay (only because you're working 84-120 hours a week) with no holiday vacation, no benefits, and only a week's additional paid vacation compared to most jobs (assuming 2 week is the average). In addition, of course, to living in a war zone.
That you can take with no education requirements, I assume beyond a high school education.

Yeah, I get that there are much harder jobs in the world than teaching. I don't see what this has to do with anything.

You were the one who brought it up. You mentioned something about people can get higher paying jobs without the four years.

Quote:Right right, it's not really work if it's not physical labor.
Cry me a goddamn river, as you so eloquently put it.

You were the one who started the wage compairison between 'high school drop-out' jobs and teaching jobs. I was just pointing out yes there are jobs that can pay more actual dollars at the end of the week but you must consider hours worked, danger level, conditions....

The high level of pay for these jobs is in direct compensation for the risk to your life and limbs. OR the insane hours needed to achieve that level of pay. OR the condition of your work and living enviroment.

What do teachers do in the summer and are they paid for those months?

Quote:Teachers are also responsible for building a portfolio of credit hours to satisfy the needs of local, state and federal Standards Boards. It is up to teachers to carefully log, reflect and document each conference, workshop or community service they participate and link it to the State standards for teachers. (Think AMA for educators) .This requires an incredible amount of time and many teachers use the summer months to complete this work.

Teachers are constantly fighting of the impression that they don't work for their pay in the summer. As mentioned above, many teachers receive a paycheck in the summer those funds are from hours they have already worked. The school withholds their pay so they get paid for 36 weeks. (The district also gets the interest on their money...nice for them.)

A recent study of the amount of time teachers on academic pursuits and requirements of the profession when not teaching was significant. The study calculated that between the amount of hours working to prepare for students and keeping up with credentialing the total amount of actual "vacation" they received was about three weeks....about as much as other workers in the workforce.

So What Do Teachers Do During The Summer?

Quote:Some teachers must compensate for the lost of pay. Teachers are paid on a ten-month salary. Some teachers opt to have their ten-month salary split into eleven months. However, teaching is not a high salary job. Many teachers take on summer jobs, such as tutoring, summer programs, blogging, department store work, etc.

The above is true for the 3 teachers I know personally.

Tempest in a teapot, Dotard.