(November 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Do we ask what could redeem the bear?  Or the lion?  We're animals.  Redemption is just the wish that we're more than that.

...and this line of reasoning leads to various Final Solutions as we deny the humanity of others by purging it from ourselves.

Or, it leads to a more holistic understanding of our place in the scheme of things.

Seriously what a strawman he made of you Jor. How does seeing us all as animals make us deny the humanity of others any more than seeing us all as humans does? He's totally missing the point, strawmanning and it's a total non-sequitur.

Anytime you're

(November 5, 2015 at 6:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: ...and this line of reasoning leads to various Final Solutions as we deny the humanity of others by purging it from ourselves.

Or, it leads to a more holistic understanding of our place in the scheme of things.

Absolutely.  It is exactly humans' refusal to see ourselves as part of nature, and a tiny part of a massive universe, that makes us act like dicks in the world.

As for the redemption of the OP-- we will follow our nature until we either save ourselves (for now) or fail to.  No redemption is required.  Maybe "recovery" or "adjustment" or "evolution" would be better terms?

(November 5, 2015 at 3:34 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, I was referring to the speed and efficiency in which we can destroy or alter habitat. With nuclear weapons we can do so at the touch of a button.

Elephants or starfish might be slower, but the ability to destroy habitat is not uniquely ours.

And more to the point, the fact that having had this ability for 60+ years and still having drawn back from the precipice, what does that say about us?

Humans, like every other animal, have both good and bad qualities. Knowing our power to wreak destruction and yet resisting it speaks well of us: we are making an conscious decision to be more careful.

(November 5, 2015 at 8:26 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 3:34 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, I was referring to the speed and efficiency in which we can destroy or alter habitat. With nuclear weapons we can do so at the touch of a button.

Elephants or starfish might be slower, but the ability to destroy habitat is not uniquely ours.

And more to the point, the fact that having had this ability for 60+  years and still having drawn back from the precipice, what does that say about us?

We've been lucky?

(November 5, 2015 at 8:26 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Humans, like every other animal, have both good and bad qualities. Knowing our power to wreak destruction and yet resisting it speaks well of us: we are making an conscious decision to be more careful.

I agree that we as animals with drives which are destructive when not held in check does not make us unique. What does make us unique is that, barring some catastrophic event, only we seem capable to keep ourselves in check. This relates to something Chad said.

(November 5, 2015 at 4:07 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 1:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Do we ask what could redeem the bear?  Or the lion?  We're animals.  Redemption is just the wish that we're more than that.

...and this line of reasoning leads to various Final Solutions as we deny the humanity of others by purging it from ourselves.

Not really sure what your point was here, Chad. But what worries me is that we only seem able to consider solutions which maximize human survival - without regard to the well being of the other life on the planet. Do we have the capacity to view 'our' survival as meaning 'our survival as an integral component of a vast and diverse web of life? I fear there is very little support for such a point of view.

(November 5, 2015 at 8:26 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 3:34 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, I was referring to the speed and efficiency in which we can destroy or alter habitat. With nuclear weapons we can do so at the touch of a button.

Elephants or starfish might be slower, but the ability to destroy habitat is not uniquely ours.

And more to the point, the fact that having had this ability for 60+  years and still having drawn back from the precipice, what does that say about us?

Humans, like every other animal, have both good and bad qualities. Knowing our power to wreak destruction and yet resisting it speaks well of us: we are making an conscious decision to be more careful.

What's this "we" stuff?

I don't know, man.  All it takes is one fucker who thinks God is talking him to push a big red button, and it's on like Donkey Kong.

(November 5, 2015 at 5:55 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 8:29 am)Shining_Finger Wrote: Um, in the eyes of Humanity. 
Damn humans are assholes for humans to consider themselves assholes.

I think you are a Dan Brown villain.  Do I have to start reading Dante to understand when your Doomsday virus will be released?

Now Now, that isn't ironic enough. 
Humans are an Invasive species, so it will be an invasive species to kill us.

(November 5, 2015 at 7:24 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 6:45 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Or, it leads to a more holistic understanding of our place in the scheme of things.

Absolutely.  It is exactly humans' refusal to see ourselves as part of nature, and a tiny part of a massive universe, that makes us act like dicks in the world.

Well that's definitely part of it but there's a whole bunch of reasons! Humans are dicks for many reasons!