(November 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Hmmm? Wrote: So you do think Paul is in agreement with what is written in those Psalms? ...do those Psalms have Paul's seal of approval?

how do you mean. Approval for what?

You know, does Paul give David/Psalms a thumbs up ...is he a big fan?

(October 28, 2015 at 9:58 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(October 28, 2015 at 9:45 am)Drich Wrote: It was commonly believed that the messiah was deliver the jewish people from the Roman authority, and at the time (After jesus before the destruction of the temple) tensions between jews and the romans were high. The romans sought any means to keep the jews under control, and the new christians (who were still considered to be jews by much of rome) were (leadership not the followers at that time) were targets for the Jews and the romans. Which is why Paul was imprisioned so many times beaten and stoned, and ultimatly imprisoned by rome/nero and executed/beheaded.

So if literal flogging, prison, stoning, and being beheaded is not to be considered 'dangerous' by you then on that note I will have to conceed to your point.

I have no complaints about the majority of your reply except for this bit, and only because it's a red herring that doesn't address the original question. You're quite right about the tension between the Romans and the Jews, but that still doesn't make Paul's statements in the epistles, circa 45 CE, automatically or inherently dangerous to him, let alone a "death sentence". We certainly have evidence that, 20 years later, the Christians were being persecuted in places like Rome, on the orders of Emperor Nero who sought to blame their minority for his own actions as a political distraction... many, many Christians were executed in that decade by Nero's orders. 

Actually no we don't. There is some evidence that christians were blamed after the fire of Rome, but not enough to be conclusive, but there is little to no evidence of persecution of christians because of their religion until Diocletian, which didn't happen until 303 CE. Most of what is reported as "christian persecution" before then is propaganda invented by the church to a) make the church look bigger than it was and b) give the believers strength through inventing a persecution complex.

(November 17, 2015 at 6:07 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(October 28, 2015 at 9:58 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: I have no complaints about the majority of your reply except for this bit, and only because it's a red herring that doesn't address the original question. You're quite right about the tension between the Romans and the Jews, but that still doesn't make Paul's statements in the epistles, circa 45 CE, automatically or inherently dangerous to him, let alone a "death sentence". We certainly have evidence that, 20 years later, the Christians were being persecuted in places like Rome, on the orders of Emperor Nero who sought to blame their minority for his own actions as a political distraction... many, many Christians were executed in that decade by Nero's orders. 

Actually no we don't. There is some evidence that christians were blamed after the fire of Rome, but not enough to be conclusive, but there is little to no evidence of persecution of christians because of their religion until Diocletian, which didn't happen until 303 CE. Most of what is reported as "christian persecution" before then is propaganda invented by the church to a) make the church look bigger than it was and b) give the believers strength through inventing a persecution complex.

So are you one of 'those people' who also say the Germans did not try to genocidaly wipe out all Jews as well?

Here ya go sport, the following artical points to a dozen or so indivisual points of reference that include, historian's personal accounts of witnessing the slaughter, Period correct edicts from governors, letters from regionts seeking authorization for death to Christians, From a declare from Nero Himself citing Christians for the burning of Rome, all the way to the actual document Constintine wrote Demanding the persecution stop, thus putting an end to 300 years of persecution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Chris...man_Empire

Just because someone says something you want to hear, doesn't mean it is true. If you don't like wiki, then look up the actual source material the artical references.. They all point to the same thing. (that you are beyond wrong/foolish for just believing atheist propaganda without vetting the source material facts of their charge. which ironically enough is what you blindly accuse us of doing.)

(November 17, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Hmmm? Wrote: You know, does Paul give David/Psalms a thumbs up ...is he a big fan?

The passage does not reference the state of mind of Paul, it simply shows that Paul pulled 7/8 of his quote "none are righteous" from the Psalms (not all of which were written by David btw.)

So we ready for 6?

(here is where it starts to get good)

(November 18, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 17, 2015 at 4:21 pm)Hmmm? Wrote: You know, does Paul give David/Psalms a thumbs up ...is he a big fan?

The passage does not reference the state of mind of Paul, it simply shows that Paul pulled 7/8 of his quote "none are righteous" from the Psalms (not all of which were written by David btw.)

(November 17, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Drich Wrote:

1. Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20
   
2. Romans 3:13 Psalm 5:9
   
3. Romans 3:13 Psalm 140:3
   
4. Romans 3:14 Psalm 10:7 (see Septuagint)
   
5. Romans 3:17 Isaiah 59:7,8
   
6. Romans 3:18 Psalm 36:1
   

Which of those Psalms weren't written by David?

Quote: We have been made right with God because of our faith. So we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through our faith, Christ has brought us into that blessing of God’s grace that we now enjoy. And we are very happy because of the hope we have of sharing God’s glory. 3 And we are also happy with the troubles we have. Why are we happy with troubles? Because we know that these troubles make us more patient. 4 And this patience is proof that we are strong. And this proof gives us hope. 5 And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.
6 Christ died for us when we were unable to help ourselves. We were living against God, but at just the right time Christ died for us. 7 Very few people will die to save the life of someone else, even if it is for a good person. Someone might be willing to die for an especially good person. 8 But Christ died for us while we were still sinners, and by this God showed how much he loves us.
9 We have been made right with God by the blood sacrifice of Christ. So through Christ we will surely be saved from God’s anger. 10 I mean that while we were God’s enemies, he made friends with us through his Son’s death. And the fact that we are now God’s friends makes it even more certain that he will save us through his Son’s life. 11 And not only will we be saved, but we also rejoice right now in what God has done for us through our Lord Jesus Christ. It is because of Jesus that we are now God’s friends.

This is a rehash of the gospel that Paul has preached up to this point, but showing a different contrast, so as to give a deeper perspective in what Jesus did and what that actually meant.

Quote:12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did. And with sin came death. So this is why all people must die—because all people have sinned. 13 Sin was in the world before the Law of Moses. But God does not consider people guilty of sin if there is no law. 14 But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, everyone had to die. Adam died because he sinned by not obeying God’s command. But even those who did not sin that same way had to die.
That one man, Adam, can be compared to Christ, the one who was coming in the future. 15 But God’s free gift is not like Adam’s sin. Many people died because of the sin of that one man. But the grace that people received from God was much greater. Many received God’s gift of life by the grace of this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 After Adam sinned once, he was judged guilty. But the gift of God is different. His free gift came after many sins, and it makes people right with him. 17 One man sinned, and so death ruled all people because of that one man. But now some people accept God’s full grace and his great gift of being made right. Surely they will have true life and rule through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 So that one sin of Adam brought the punishment of death to all people. But in the same way, Christ did something so good that it makes all people right with God. And that brings them true life. 19 One man disobeyed God and many became sinners. But in the same way, one man obeyed God and many will be made right. 20 The law was brought in so that more people would sin the way Adam did. But where sin increased, there was even more of God’s grace. 21 Sin once used death to rule us. But God gave us more of his grace so that grace could rule by making us right with him. And this brings us eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Again typical to Jewish teaching styles Their is an explaination and at the end a rehash or summary. Romans 5 is just s deeping summary of everything that has been taught upto this point.

One new thing to point out is many people take the 'death' of verse 12 to mean physical death, but that would not be consistent with the 'Life' provided by the works of Christ. The death sin brings is Spiritual. Yes we all physically die, but what Paul is communicating here is Sin Brings on a Spiritual death, and Jesus offers atonement from that death and offers eternal life.

So again in one man (Adam) through not obeying God/sin Spiritual death was brought to all of us.
And again through one man (Jesus) we are brought back to life if we want eternal life.

Not as an act/reward of our works, but because we believe/want to love God.

(November 18, 2015 at 9:47 am)Drich Wrote: So we ready for 6?

(here is where it starts to get good)

Oh, yes, by all means! The suspense and lack of sleep is killing me.

No one can write a page-turner like Paul. Dickens and Dostoevsky were hacks by comparison.

(November 18, 2015 at 10:22 am)Hmmm? Wrote:

(November 18, 2015 at 9:46 am)Drich Wrote: The passage does not reference the state of mind of Paul, it simply shows that Paul pulled 7/8 of his quote "none are righteous" from the Psalms (not all of which were written by David btw.)

(November 17, 2015 at 12:54 pm)Drich Wrote:

1. Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20
   
2. Romans 3:13 Psalm 5:9
   
3. Romans 3:13 Psalm 140:3
   
4. Romans 3:14 Psalm 10:7 (see Septuagint)
   
5. Romans 3:17 Isaiah 59:7,8
   
6. Romans 3:18 Psalm 36:1
   

Which of those Psalms weren't written by David?

I've got an old book at home that lists them, but not with me. I googled this list.. These look right (it lists the psalms David did write. that is a much shorter list than the ones he did not write.)


http://www.lwbc.co.uk/davids_psalms.htm