(December 1, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(December 1, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The belief in free will is a fundamental Catholic teaching.

Yes, we believe God knows everything that happens, that doesn't mean that we don't choose our actions. It means He knows what we are going to choose.

So your god, created me, knowing all along all the choices I would make, including not believing he exists. 

And he did this with the knowledge that I would be punished in the Catholic hell. Why would a moral being do this? 

Does everything happen according to god's plan?

For the record, I don't think disbelief in God automatically qualifies someone for Hell, but that's another discussion I've had many times. 

We don't claim to know why God allows certain things to happen as they do. I don't know why God would allow someone like Hitler to be born, for example. The best explanation that I can come up with is that God is not a micromanager. I believe the way He operates is to let nature take its course, knowing that in the end the good will far outweigh the bad.

(December 1, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 1, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote: Well then, how can you be catholic? The rcc (and other catholic churches, including anglicanism) insistence that god is omniscient means that catholics by necessity have to believe that free will is impossible. For if god knows all, ordinary humans cannot possibly have a choice in their actions.

The belief in free will is a fundamental Catholic teaching.

Yes, we believe God knows everything that happens, that doesn't mean that we don't choose our actions. It means He knows what we are going to choose.

Sorry, but that doesn't work. If he both knows what we are going to choose and he created us knowing that then there is no free will. It might as well be all in his own mind. His own creation, knows what's going to happen, lets it play out... Does that sound right to you?

Imagine yourself locked in a dark room with no escape, no sound, nothing to touch(not even the floor beneath you or a wall). All you have is your thoughts, but no memory. You're still human, you can think, you can use language to do that, you have concepts and know of objects and how they look and all that, but you never actually experienced anything. Now just for arguments' sake, suppose you were infinitely more intelligent than you are in that same situation.
There you go. You're God. Nothing exists outside of you and it's all in your own mind.

But let the thought experiment lie for a bit. Suppose you were to explain to me what this free will you talk about actually means. Do you know what it is? Can you describe it to me? Can you even imagine it?

(December 1, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 1, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: So your god, created me, knowing all along all the choices I would make, including not believing he exists. 

And he did this with the knowledge that I would be punished in the Catholic hell. Why would a moral being do this? 

Does everything happen according to god's plan?

For the record, I don't think disbelief in God automatically qualifies someone for Hell, but that's another discussion I've had many times. 

We don't claim to know why God allows certain things to happen as they do. I don't know why God would allow someone like Hitler to be born, for example. The best explanation that I can come up with is that God is not a micromanager. I believe the way He operates is to let nature take its course, knowing that in the end the good will far outweigh the bad.

Then CL god isn't all knowing then if he doesn't know what our actions are going to be in this life.

(December 1, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The best explanation that I can come up with is that God is not a micromanager. I believe the way He operates is to let nature take its course, knowing that in the end the good will far outweigh the bad.

Not only is that a horrible misuse of the type of power he possesses; if he was good, then he would behave as the superheroes we have created through fiction. A god without the ability to do anything except sit back is not a god worth one's belief.

Also, you just made yourself quite the apologetic.

(December 1, 2015 at 7:21 pm)Kitan Wrote:

(December 1, 2015 at 7:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Personal experience can be evidence for that person though. Not the type of evidence that I could show to the whole world to "prove" His existence to everyone, but enough for me personally to hold the position that I do.

From a psychological standpoint, could this personal experience not be held to the same standard as those who are delusional?

I.E., those who believe in such things that are clearly not real.

Yes, of course. But I don't think I'm insane, nor have I ever had any sort of problems with mental illness lol. There are 2 explanations for what happened: 1. me and the person I was with are both insane and had the exact same delusion at the exact same time, or 2. what we experienced really did happened.

(December 1, 2015 at 7:28 pm)Kitan Wrote: Also, you just made yourself quite the apologetic.

Should I not have answered his question then?

(December 1, 2015 at 7:28 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(December 1, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For the record, I don't think disbelief in God automatically qualifies someone for Hell, but that's another discussion I've had many times. 

We don't claim to know why God allows certain things to happen as they do. I don't know why God would allow someone like Hitler to be born, for example. The best explanation that I can come up with is that God is not a micromanager. I believe the way He operates is to let nature take its course, knowing that in the end the good will far outweigh the bad.

Then CL god isn't all knowing then if he doesn't know what our actions are going to be in this life.

I never said He doesn't. I said He does lol.

(December 1, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, of course. But I don't think I'm insane, nor have I ever had any sort of problems with mental illness lol. There are 2 explanations for what happened: 1. me and the person I was with are both insane and had the exact same delusion at the exact same time, or 2. what we experienced really did happened.

The problem with believing in god does not follow the same protocol of one with obvious mental illness. Guaranteed, I consider belief in god a mental illness, alright, but it is so common place, such a world wide phenomenon that those in the field of mental health are blind to the obvious harm such religious belief causes. Even merely believing in a deity that does not exist is just as harmful as those who go to extremes because of those beliefs, because goodness knows the extremes would not exist if religion was not such a disease.

Option 6: Right on his hairy omnipotent testicles.

(December 1, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, of course. But I don't think I'm insane

Insane people often don't realize they're insane.

(Not insinuating that you are insane, I'm merely pointing out that awareness of being insane is not a requirement of actually being insane. There are many people who can be classified as insane who think they're the only rational people on the planet.)

Quote:nor have I ever had any sort of problems with mental illness lol. There are 2 explanations for what happened: 1. me and the person I was with are both insane and had the exact same delusion at the exact same time, or 2. what we experienced really did happened.

How did you determine that your god was the cause of this experience? To put it another way, how have you ruled out every other possible mundane or naturalistic explanation?