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December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 13, 2015 at 2:51 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:
(December 13, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: [...]So when someone talks about wanting every gun owner to get killed by getting shot, I use the word "innocent" to describe them in the sense that they are not criminals deserving of a death sentence merely because they have a gun.
And yet they deserve a death sentence merely because they were born human. All you're saying is that only god gets to harm and kill people, or even wish for them to die. All we get to do is praise god when they do die and/or get otherwise punished.
(December 13, 2015 at 2:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As for the story of Eve eating the apple, I've talked many times about how neither me nor the majority of Catholics see this story as a literal one. It's more a symbolism of human sin, free will, and the fact that none of us is perfect and will inevitably do things wrong sometimes.
You're still dancing around the issue. It doesn't matter, if it's a literal female eating a literal apple, or not - according to your god because of our POTENTIAL for "doing things wrong sometimes", we don't deserve to live forever, the way humans were - allegedly - originally intended to. In fact - many of us deserve to live in utter poverty, ignorance and indignity, just because - as C. Hitchens put it - we were created sick and commanded to be well.
But the belief is that we are going to live forever. We don't believe death is the end all be all, it is only the beginning of the next life.
This is not a perfect analogy, but it does help bring some understanding and put things into perspective:
Quote:In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”
The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”
The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”
The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”
The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”
“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”
The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”
The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”
Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”
To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
December 13, 2015 at 3:21 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:22 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But the belief is that we are going to live forever. We don't believe death is the end all be all, it is only the beginning of the next life.
Well, then - what are you complaining about? No one ever really dies, so there's no harm in wishing them death, or finding morbid humor in it. That's why we don't cry at funerals, right? Because dead people go to a "better place" - not disappearing forever...
(December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is not a perfect analogy, but it does help bring some understanding and put things into perspective:
Quote:In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?” The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”
The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”
The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”
The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”
The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”
“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”
The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”
The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”
Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”
To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.
Lol... Really? The old "Two Babies" trope? I don't know on what basis, but somehow I thought this kind of utter nonsensical demagoguery would be beneath you. I don't know what I was thinking...
No, this sort of cheap propaganda for dim children does not help clarifying your position. Not in a flattering way, anyway.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
December 13, 2015 at 3:26 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:26 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 13, 2015 at 3:21 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:
(December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But the belief is that we are going to live forever. We don't believe death is the end all be all, it is only the beginning of the next life.
Well, then - what are you complaining about? No one ever really dies, so there's no harm in wishing them death, or finding morbid humor in it. That's why we don't cry at funerals, right? Because dead people go to a "better place" - not disappearing forever...
(December 13, 2015 at 3:09 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is not a perfect analogy, but it does help bring some understanding and put things into perspective:
Lol... Really? The old "Two Babies" trope? I don't know on what basis, but somehow I thought this kind of utter nonsensical demagoguery would be beneath you. I don't know what I was thinking...
No, this sort of cheap propaganda for dim children does not help clarifying your position. Not in a flattering way, anyway.
But earthly life is still sacred and so laughing about the destruction of it or wishing it upon innocent people isn't undeserving of criticism. And also out of respect for the loved ones who lost their parent/child/sibling/etc.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
Sadly, far too many people prefer slogans to dealing with harsh realities.
I find some of those facts questionable. The worst gender inequality, highest poverty rate, worst child well being, and most people with no health care.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
December 13, 2015 at 3:35 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:36 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
^Agree. I'm sure Syria does better than us in all of those.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
December 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:43 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(December 13, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But earthly life is still sacred and so laughing about the destruction of it or wishing it upon innocent people isn't undeserving of criticism. And also out of respect for the loved ones who lost their parent/child/sibling/etc.
Be that as it may - there's a difference between making a inconsiderate emotionally motivated comment and creating a convoluted and comprehensive system of beliefs, justifying bigotry, genocide and eternal torture.
If you can believe, that some innocent people deserve to be rejected by god and condemned to torture (in whatever mild-mannered way you decide to put it), because they act in a different way, than you would like them to - why can't other people, who perhaps deeply believe that guns are evil, believe that innocent gun owners deserve a horrible fate? Because you added an imaginary friend into the equation, who takes away your responsibility? Clever...
Where's the respect for the families of homosexuals, when they're told their loved ones will deservedly burn in hell, or that their relationships don't deserve a legal status?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
(December 13, 2015 at 3:05 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:
(December 13, 2015 at 2:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well I believe God is everything that is good - love, charity, kindness, honesty, generosity, etc. I believe everything that is not good is merely the absence of God. Cliche, but basically in the same way that darkness is the absence of light.
So is being of or from god something which exists in pleasant psychological states, being what they are like? Do you believe God can and does literally take the form of a human-like subject? Is there anything which God, as you understand it, is apart from the way we experience it?
I guess you know by now I think that God can seem as real to a person as they are themselves, and that is because I think both personal identity and god identity are the product of the human mind. Neither we nor god have any existence outside lived experience, but that doesn't mean that those who believe should be rid of belief in God any more than they should try to transcend belief in themselves as persons.
If it is any comfort, I think that God is usually experienced as encompassing a greater portion of ones total being. Furthermore, those of us who reject any gods in all forms don't always succeed in creating an alternative 'channel' for accessing that greater self. (But it isn't impossible.)
Yes, I have definitely gathered that you take this approach. I think it's interesting. It kind of reminds me of that Wait But Why article I posted several months ago where the atheist author talks about reaching a "higher being", though he's talking about ourselves just reaching a greater understanding and overcoming our animal instincts to become something greater.
And if we look at it that way, it's like mine and your beliefs are really not that different in their most basic, human level. We just have a different way of looking at it and/or of reaching that similar conclusion.
As for your questions above, another fellow Catholic described God in an interesting way:
Think of God as being a beautiful crystal vase. It falls and shatters into trillions of tiny little pieces. And each one of us has that little piece of Him within us. So when we see a lot of good in someone else, like, when we fall in love or when we have a child, we have that overwhelming feeling of love and adoration for them. That is because we are subconsciously seeing a little piece of God in that person. And that is only a "preview" of what God looks like and what it'll feel like to be with Him.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
December 13, 2015 at 3:55 pm (This post was last modified: December 13, 2015 at 3:56 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:
(December 13, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But earthly life is still sacred and so laughing about the destruction of it or wishing it upon innocent people isn't undeserving of criticism. And also out of respect for the loved ones who lost their parent/child/sibling/etc.
Be that as it may - there's a difference between making a inconsiderate emotionally motivated comment and creating a convoluted and comprehensive system of beliefs, justifying bigotry, genocide and eternal torture.
If you can believe, that some innocent people deserve to be rejected by god and condemned to torture (in whatever mild-mannered way you decide to put it), because they act in a different way, than you would like them to - why can't other people, who perhaps deeply believe that guns are evil, believe that innocent gun owners deserve a horrible fate? Because you added an imaginary friend into the equation, who takes away your responsibility? Clever...
Where's the respect for the families of homosexuals, when they're told their loved ones will deservedly burn in hell, or that their relationships don't deserve a legal status?
I don't believe those things, HN. I have already explained my position.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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