Then why call it hell?

(December 13, 2015 at 1:00 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Then why call it hell?

Why not?

Because "hell" as a concept has too much religious baggage attached to it.

(December 13, 2015 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's not "treatment," that's the thing though. They're not being pained by someone else mistreating them, they are being pained by their own thoughts and choices.

It's like if someone is a huge bigot and just hates everyone else. That person becomes consumed by their own hatred and bigotry, isolates himself from everyone else, hates everyone else, and decides to live a lonely life of hatred and emptiness. In doing so, this person just makes themselves extremely bitter and unhappy, because as human beings we need love and companionship. But this person is too consumed by hate to open his heart to those things.   
[...]

Yeah, homosexuals, who want to express their love for each other are JUST like bigots and therefore bring on themselves the fate you and your god believe they deserve, by not listening to sanctimonious a**holes, who think they have monopoly on the right way to live... Do you ever connect together the beliefs you hold and the apologetics you use to prop them up with, so that the inherent bigotry and disingenuity of the system becomes apparent? Or is it all just a bunch of ever disjointed and carefully compartmentalized platitudes, only meant to make you feel good about yourself?

And anyway - however you manage to cherry-pick and twist your way around the idea of a place of eternal torture and the omnipotent, benevolent creator, that MADE it and decided to keep it - that doesn't change the fact, that according to you and your god - EVERYONE deserves to die, which is why we all have to die. Because Eve ate an apple and all the innocent people afterwards - a great number of which never got to eat anything, because god killed them at birth - thereby deserved to be mortal.

(December 13, 2015 at 10:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't see how his analogy makes sense. He's pretty much saying that believing in hell is the same thing as wishing death upon someone. This analogy would only work if you wished someone would go to Hell. Then you could compare it to wishing someone got killed. But on the contrary, wishing Hell upon someone is fundamentally contrary to my beliefs and to what the Church teaches our attitude should be.  

As for the claim that "God dooms people to Hell", I have talked about this quite a bit and even wrote a thread about it. I'll look for it and post it here. 

Basically, I don't believe God dooms people to Hell.

So what? His point was not about Hell, but about death:

Quote:I must remind you that according to your imaginary friend NOONE is innocent and EVERYONE deserves to die, including infants - in whatever gruesome way Jeezles sees fit - because a b*tch ate some fruit once.

Perhaps you should answer his point? Part of Original Sin -- our "fallen state" -- is death. As your own catechism states, Original Sin is not an act but rather a condition. It is clear that if your god wanted to do so, he could heal humankind of this fallen state (as you believe he did with Mary). The fact is that you believe your god himself invented death -- when he had the power to instead impart immortality. To then turn around and protest someone's hypothetical wish for the death of others even as you worship the Author of Death is the weakness his point is aimed at.

(December 13, 2015 at 1:37 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 11:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's not "treatment," that's the thing though. They're not being pained by someone else mistreating them, they are being pained by their own thoughts and choices.

It's like if someone is a huge bigot and just hates everyone else. That person becomes consumed by their own hatred and bigotry, isolates himself from everyone else, hates everyone else, and decides to live a lonely life of hatred and emptiness. In doing so, this person just makes themselves extremely bitter and unhappy, because as human beings we need love and companionship. But this person is too consumed by hate to open his heart to those things.   
[...]

Yeah, homosexuals, who want to express their love for each other are JUST like bigots and therefore bring on themselves the fate you and your god believe they deserve, by not listening to sanctimonious a**holes, who think they have monopoly on the right way to live... Do you ever connect together the beliefs you hold and the apologetics you use to prop them up with, so that the inherent bigotry and disingenuity of the system becomes apparent? Or is it all just a bunch of ever disjointed and carefully compartmentalized platitudes, only meant to make you feel good about yourself?

And anyway - however you manage to cherry-pick and twist your way around the idea of a place of eternal torture and the omnipotent, benevolent creator, that MADE it and decided to keep it - that doesn't change the fact, that according to you and your god - EVERYONE deserves to die, which is why we all have to die. Because Eve ate an apple and all the innocent people afterwards - a great number of which never got to eat anything, because god killed them at birth - thereby deserved to be mortal.

You're making strawmen arguments and very much mistaken about what I believe and about what is "according to me". 

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread. If you're actually curious to know my real position on these issues feel free to PM me and we can talk about it. One member already did so and we had an honest discussion about it. If not, you can continue to falsely accuse me and strawman, but chances are I probably won't respond.

(December 13, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You're making strawmen arguments and very much mistaken about what I believe and about what is "according to me". 
[...]

You claim to be a "devout catholic". I happen to know what that means, as I was raised as one. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too, by on one hand - subscribing to a very rigid and transparent set of religious beliefs, and on the other - creating a pretense of individuality and freedom of thought.

You can deflect all you want, saying that I'm somehow misrepresenting your particular self-serving interpretation of the ideology I was once a part of, that doesn't change the fact, that my claim to "proper" understanding catholic dogma and views is just as valid as yours.

(December 10, 2015 at 2:38 pm)JuliaL Wrote: America sucks!
It's horrible here.

Please stay away.

Don't even visit.
Really, I'm not kidding.
Trust me.

Clever. 

(December 13, 2015 at 2:07 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 10:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I must remind you that according to your imaginary friend NOONE is innocent and EVERYONE deserves to die, including infants - in whatever gruesome way Jeezles sees fit - because a b*tch ate some fruit once.

Perhaps you should answer his point?  Part of Original Sin -- our "fallen state" -- is death. As your own catechism states, Original Sin is not an act but rather a condition. It is clear that if your god wanted to do so, he could heal humankind of this fallen state (as you believe he did with Mary). The fact is that you believe your god himself invented death -- when he had the power to instead impart immortality. To then turn around and protest someone's hypothetical wish for the death of others even as you worship the Author of Death is the weakness his point is aimed at.

I believe that to God, no one is "innocent" only in the sense that no one is perfect. Even the best of us have all done things that are wrong at some point in our lives. That is what that means. But it does not apply in the context of the discussion we are having, or in the context that I used the word "innocent" when I was talking about people who own guns and who are not criminals nor have harmed anyone with them. So when someone talks about wanting every gun owner to get killed by getting shot, I use the word "innocent" to describe them in the sense that they are not criminals deserving of a death sentence merely because they have a gun.

As for the story of Eve eating the apple, I've talked many times about how neither me nor the majority of Catholics see this story as a literal one. It's more a symbolism of human sin, free will, and the fact that none of us is perfect and will inevitably do things wrong sometimes.

(December 13, 2015 at 10:41 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Here are my beliefs regarding Hell: 

http://atheistforums.org/thread-35781.html

In the earlier post you Wrote:I've explained my views a little bit, by saying that 1. I don't believe Hell is a physical place, 2. I don't believe God "throws" people into Hell, and 3. I believe Hell is the state of being by an individual who has rejected goodness and love, thus rejecting God Himself (since I believe God is those things).

I certainly agree with all three points. The only provision for me is "thus rejecting God" part, since it seems spurious to equate "goodness and love" with "god". (I would've thought god was more synonymous with revenge and retribution than anything else, but admittedly I am uninformed.)

So this is to say that "being in hell" is a psychological state, not a physical place. I believe psychological states exist, including angst, alienation and hopelessness. When one is actually in such a state, the imagery and symbolism of the bible's hell may more richly capture the felt experience. But one must never allow what something is like become understood literally.

I wonder if you can say why you feel understanding positive psychological states as being closer to god adds to your experience or understanding of the world.