(January 2, 2016 at 10:52 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 7:16 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know if this would mean anything to you, but one line that stroke me as important is describing the lovers of God and loved ones of God:

...and fearing not the blame of any blamer...(5:54)

Forgive me if you've said this elsewhere, are you still following Islam primarily? I know you mentioned you were once a Deist.

It's impossible for me to follow Islam when I don't know what it is. And I cannot know what is, unless through a Guide from God. It's up to God to bring me to that guidance and make me certain it's truly that leader and guide of the journey.

The problem if I say I follow Islam, there are many versions of it right now, and I am pretty sure all of them are wrong. Therefore the official Islam is not my religion.

The unofficial Islam (the true Islam) is also not my religion, since I'm not upon that guidance.

The Quran has lead me to believe in this guidance, but I don't know what the true Quran is nor the true Sunnah nor am I witnessing the true Guide and companion of the journey.

That said I do with what I got.  I don't know how close it is to the true religion and face of God.

Sometimes we pay a terrible price for emotional comfort, even if the only way to do so is to entertain a fantasy. At the end of the day, I don't think it's worth it, no matter how good it might make you feel to pretend something is real when it's clearly not. And that's because the initial buzz will go away, and all you'll have become is a sad little being who's mentally shackled to a simplistic system of thought that makes everything else seem unimportant by comparison. It's easy to be happy if you pretend there's more to it all than there's any reason to believe there is. With that mindset, everything gets easier. Suffering doesn't matter as much when there's a purpose to the cosmos and someone powerful watching, someone who's going to take care of everything in the end, no matter how or when he's going to do it.

Another way to look at it is to compare it to love. You create a perfect being in your mind, something surreal, when you fall in love with somebody, but what if you love something that never existed to begin with? You may be confusing it, really, with loyalty for some real ideal(s) and/or love for some real person(s). When you're that confused about something though, don't expect to act rationally about it. You have to analyze your own religious feelings to understand what you actually value or have feelings about and are attributing to a immaterial being instead.

(December 30, 2015 at 4:52 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: My own journey is like this.

I was a born skeptic. Unless a claim is accompanied by supporting: demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid and sound logic, I withhold belief for that claim.

About the age of 15 or so, I came to the realization that I was not examining my god beliefs with the same level of scrutiny as other existential claims and supernatural claims. As soon as I did, I discovered that they did not hold up. In order to maintain my intellectual honesty, I could no longer hold on to my god beliefs.

EDIT: I had a quick romance with deism, then pantheism. But as soon as I figured out what I was calling "god" was just the universe, I dropped those beliefs.

I'm glad to say I went through the exact same journey as you did.

(January 2, 2016 at 10:42 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(January 2, 2016 at 7:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: The reason why I questioned you earlier in the thread, is because, if you found a good reason to return to your theistic beliefs, I want to know about it. It wasn't to put you in a tough spot, it was to discover if your beliefs were rational and evidence based enough for me to also believe them.

As I previously stated, I am passionate about having as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs. If you have, what I would consider good reasons, as far as I can tell, you wouldn't need faith. 

My main reason to continue to participate in these discussions, is to determine if there is some belief that I don't currently hold, that I should.

I just wish someone could tell me why a god would want people to believe on bad evidence, despite all the good evidence to the contrary.

I know Simon, I do. The challenge with atheism, is that it expects certainty and factual evidence...which a believer who has had an experience could convey, but not in a way that can be tried and tested and satisfying to a non-believer. You know? So, you know what various religions teach, you know certainly what Christianity teaches...and yet you don't believe it. I was this same exact way, I just let it all go, and no longer cared about it. You could say when you're alone...whenever...''God, if you exist...reveal yourself to me in some way.'' And if/when He does, hopefully you will understand what I'm feeling now. I believe that reading stories of the past (the Bible) isn't enough...it requires one to have an experience of faith...or to continually experience their faith, and that be something as simple as a joy that is hard to explain. I think of Christians who are bigots, and such and it would seem to me that their faith resides in a book...and faith is a lot more than that, to me now.

There is something very sweet about your wording here. ''Sweet'' lol I can't think of a better word right now, but your post is endearing. When you say 'if there is some belief that I don't currently hold, that I should.' It's interesting to me, to talk with someone who desires to know as much as he can.

Because the experience isn't the important part, it's how you verified the experience.  Lots of people have "experiences" that they completely and totally misidentify. They think things are happening that are not happening at all.  All religious experiences have the same thing in common, bald assertions about the cause of events that the experiencer cannot verify or validate.  That makes them questionable at best.  People get far too emotionally attached to what they want to happen and not very intellectually interested in what actually happens.

(January 2, 2016 at 10:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The thing is though, you're making assumptions too. On this very post. 

Where am I making assumptions?

(December 30, 2015 at 10:00 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 6:54 pm)cocunningham Wrote: Well their are examples where a tribe or civilization benefited from a religion.   One example that comes to mind was a tribe (I forget where but can look it up when I get home) that had certain rituals related to agriculture.  When the Europeans introduced them to the calendar and use that for determining when you plant and harvest they lost their crops to insects and flooding.  Religion has also been used to unite people into a common cause in many instances.

Now I agree that religions are appealing because they explain things we don't know as it's natural to fear the unknown.  That explains why people followed but not really how they originate as someone has to fabricate them as I suspect they were not all given sacred script.  Some are mentally unbalanced and may believe (jonestown comes to mind) however the majority I theorize were created for a specific goal such as gain prominence in the tribe or attempt to manipulate the tribe into adopting a certain practice

Yea, that's pretty cool. Some would say (and I might have once said this as a skeptic) that hope doesn't require religion, so people 'adopt' religions, and such but deep down...in their heart of hearts, they are capable of doing it all on their own. As a believer again, it doesn't bother me to give thanks to a god. After my experiences over the past few months, I mean real experiences that changed my life, my heart, etc...that's why I'm thankful. It could all be coincidence, though, as a skeptic might think. lol I find these conversations fascinating, because we all have the capacity to be a great skeptic...or a great believer. Isn't that intetersting? 

We also have the capacity to become either criminals or aid workers. Nothing interesting about it, it's just arbitrary human potential.

As I said before, it seems to me like something happened to you, something bad, that made you lose part of your rationality. I view it as a mental problem, no more and no less. And I'm being so frank with you only because you were a skeptic, not so long ago, if I understand you correctly.

(December 30, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Deidre32 Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Intuition is very powerful in that it can 'see' things that are in perpetual shadow.   But it's also very fickle in that it doesn't explain the connection between intuition and reality; it leaves you at the mercy of time to explain its unfolding.  In that sense, one can't directly compare reason and intuition.  The one is reliable but limited, the other not so limited but also fundamentally unreliable (in the sense that we can't understand the truth as it is, rather than how our subjectivity colors it).  The problem is not in using both, for most often they don't compete in what they tell you.  The problem is in determining which one to trust on subjects at which they are at odds.  I lost the option to choose 'intuition' at one point where they conflicted and had no choice but to triumph reason.  For most things however, such a choice is seldom necessary.  Except in the case of religion, where it seems intuition speaks in terms of shadow that never clearly reveal themselves, and reason is perpetually trying to draw us back into the light.

Neither way on their own seems wholly satisfying.

This is so good, it really is. You know, I have mainly atheist friends in my offline life, and one of them said one day recently, that he thought maybe life should be a blend of belief and fact. Belief based on some loose facts and a leap of faith. My fiance is a Christian, but was an atheist for a long time, and he's sort of a ''loose'' Christian, not ultra-practicing, etc. But, even he was like...really? lol There were some wine and spirits involved in this conversation that day, but suffice to say that we all wonder. I think where the danger comes in, is when people dictate to others what to believe. Many Christians are that way. Intuition for me, can't also be yours. You have to find your own, if you so desire to seek it, you know? 

Having identified as an atheist at one time, really helped me. The joy I have in believing again, comes also from a time when I didn't believe. And didn't care. It is in that freedom to choose either path, that we find meaning to life, I guess. Neither way on their own seems wholly satisfying, as you put it. I like that a lot.

The more I listen to you, the more you seem like a little spoiled child whose imaginative worldview is protected by grown ups. Take responsibility for a change. It's demeaning to give in to such instincts, as I said before, as a full-blown adult, especially as one who knows better.

(January 3, 2016 at 12:16 am)excitedpenguin Wrote:

(December 30, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Deidre32 Wrote: This is so good, it really is. You know, I have mainly atheist friends in my offline life, and one of them said one day recently, that he thought maybe life should be a blend of belief and fact. Belief based on some loose facts and a leap of faith. My fiance is a Christian, but was an atheist for a long time, and he's sort of a ''loose'' Christian, not ultra-practicing, etc. But, even he was like...really? lol There were some wine and spirits involved in this conversation that day, but suffice to say that we all wonder. I think where the danger comes in, is when people dictate to others what to believe. Many Christians are that way. Intuition for me, can't also be yours. You have to find your own, if you so desire to seek it, you know? 

Having identified as an atheist at one time, really helped me. The joy I have in believing again, comes also from a time when I didn't believe. And didn't care. It is in that freedom to choose either path, that we find meaning to life, I guess. Neither way on their own seems wholly satisfying, as you put it. I like that a lot.

The more I listen to you, the more you seem like a little spoiled child whose imaginative worldview is protected by grown ups. Take responsibility for a change. It's demeaning to give in to such instincts, as I said before, as a full-blown adult, especially as one who knows better.

This thread isn't for this purpose, it's for atheists to share if they've been theists before and what caused them to abandon those beliefs. Turning it into your own platform to pontificate to me how you are somehow better than me, is falling on deaf ears. What you think of me is irrelevant.

(January 3, 2016 at 12:20 am)Deidre32 Wrote:

(January 3, 2016 at 12:16 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: The more I listen to you, the more you seem like a little spoiled child whose imaginative worldview is protected by grown ups. Take responsibility for a change. It's demeaning to give in to such instincts, as I said before, as a full-blown adult, especially as one who knows better.

This thread isn't for this purpose, it's for atheists to share if they've been theists before and what caused them to abandon those beliefs. Turning it into your own platform to pontificate to me how you are somehow better than me, is falling on deaf ears. What you think of me is irrelevant.

There you go, sweetie.  Isn't that better?

(January 3, 2016 at 12:21 am)excitedpenguin Wrote:

(January 3, 2016 at 12:20 am)Deidre32 Wrote: This thread isn't for this purpose, it's for atheists to share if they've been theists before and what caused them to abandon those beliefs. Turning it into your own platform to pontificate to me how you are somehow better than me, is falling on deaf ears. What you think of me is irrelevant.

There you go, sweetie.  Isn't that better?

I reported your post. Try to stay on topic, brah.