(January 4, 2016 at 3:29 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 2:01 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: What, being rational about a meaningless concept? Pretty well actually.

... as if apologies are irrational ....


... pegged.

They are but I don't want to argue about it.

They may be effective, that I agree with. But I won't accept something as true based on its utility function alone.

(January 4, 2016 at 2:25 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 2:21 pm)Evie Wrote: Be as honest as possible within reason. If there are ever any exceptions it would only be to really protect your child/children, and it would be very rare that an outright lie would be required to do that, if ever. Simply not telling them everything until they are old enough to understand may be enough.

Lying to children almost always causes unnecessary harm at worst and unnecessary confusion at best.

I'm guessing.  I am no parent and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong folks, this is just how I feel about it if I were to become a parent.

Lying to children causes in harm in that when they discover the lie, they lose trust in you and that's not good.  Kids need to be able to trust their parents.  If you say you will do something, do it.  If you tell them something, be sure it's the truth.  Holding back detail to protect them is perfectly fine.

... and if you don't say something because it's not age-appropriate, is that lying (deception by omission)?

I think it is. I also think it's justified, at times.

Apology is an art... it is beyond truth and lies... it stimulates the emotions of beauty and drowns hatred.... it's such a beautiful thing...


Yeh... I am crazy

I'll get back to work now

(January 4, 2016 at 3:35 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 2:25 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Lying to children causes in harm in that when they discover the lie, they lose trust in you and that's not good.  Kids need to be able to trust their parents.  If you say you will do something, do it.  If you tell them something, be sure it's the truth.  Holding back detail to protect them is perfectly fine.

... and if you don't say something because it's not age-appropriate, is that lying (deception by omission)?

I think it is. I also think it's justified, at times.

interesting Thump.  I do think that omitting can be qualified as lying but also can be justified.  Omitting something you KNOW they would comprehend could be lying, yes, but it has it's purpose.

Example:  A co-worker of mine, her 8 yr old daughter lost a classmate at school.  This classmate lost her life in a domestic violence situation.  She didn't tell her daughter how her friend died, just that she died.  What benefit would there be in telling the 8 year old that her friend was accidently shot in the chest by her drunk father?  What kind of emotions/thoughts would that put in her daughters head?  It would unnecessarily cause more emotional harm.  She died, it's very sad, end of story.  The daughter did ask how her friend died and the mom rightfully said 'in an accident'.  She got the information and can process that.  Spare the gruesome details that would cause her much more to process.

(January 4, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Apology is an art... it is beyond truth and lies... it stimulates the emotions of beauty and drowns hatred.... it's such a beautiful thing...


Yeh... I am crazy

I'll get back to work now

No you're not crazy, I agree with you.

Apologizing is an art, and so is apologizing for apologizing so much, and so is unapologetically apologizing, too.

Apologizing can make one feel better. It can be an impulse that when fulfilled is reassuring.

Whenever possible I think it's best not to feel too guilty when one apologizes, but if you do, fuck it. Feeling guilty for feeling guilty is self-defeating, but so is feeling guilty for feeling guilty for feeling guilty, and so on

I also think when friends let you know that you haven't actually done anything wrong if you clearly haven't but you feel you have, that reassurance can be good and feel good, but no pressure should be involved. A friend could say something like: "If you feel guilty that's okay, don't feel guilty about feeling guilty because that's feeling guilty about being who you are. Just let me make it clear that I honestly believe you have done nothing wrong and have nothing to feel guilty about, including you don't need to feel guilty for feeling guilty either, you're fine no matter what and you've done nothing wrong...you're being hard on yourself as usual ."

(January 4, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Apology is an art... it is beyond truth and lies... it stimulates the emotions of beauty and drowns hatred.... it's such a beautiful thing...


Yeh... I am crazy

I'll get back to work now

Indeed it is.  I think far too many people think of apologies as a way to make themselves feel better.  You don't apologize to make yourself feel better.  You apologize because you were wrong and you want to restore relationship with the person you wronged.

Keep this in mind, always: world culture, and expecially that of the US is over-saturated with bullshit on account of what children, most who now walk around in adult bodies, were either taught to believe or were never disabused of when they were little. This applies to anything which would lead to self-delusional behavior, not necessarily religious. Therefore, if a child comes to you asking for the truth on something, give him no less than the truth! However, this does not mean that you need to spin it as darkly as you may have seen it at times, because you also want to inspire children with the motivation to do what they can to make their own world better, and move the rest of it toward a more positive ideal. Let them know that it's up to them to build a new and better culture, and if they can get together on doing that, than no non-metaphysical improvement in their future is beyond their ability.

Every time I see a parent recommend witholding a straight answer from a child, this makes by blood boil! I'm no child myself at nearly 50, and while this is hardly the most eyebrow-raising error committed by my parents, it is what I find myself least able to forgive them for. Parents who dodge their responsibility to inform children when they are seeking answers aren't really protecting anyone other than themselves from having to see their cute little boys and girls outgrow their childish innocence ignorance. 

Of course children don't need to know all the seedy, gory details on things, but please don't ever say "When you're older..." - when they are mature enough to formulate questions, they are mature enough for a valid answer in some form. Encourage them to ask more questions, especially when it comes to sex and relationships. These especially - they need to know from you how to deal with this safely, and if you won't help them then they will find out on their own! Don't let them grow up naive about political relations either, especially when it makes the difference which would cause them to get pulled under by disillusionment. If you are a child's parent, you have to be the one who he can trust above all others, and that means you must not risk his trust by handling his questions with any appearance of secrecy or deceit as you steer him around life's dark alleys. 

There are of course some judgements which a child needs to make for himself, least among them religious ideas. While I am anti-theist and am down only the most infinitesimally small gap from the top of the Dawkins scale, it was me who decided this for myself, and I believe any child who isn't allowed to do the same would be fairly assessed as indoctrinated on the subject. So I would tell him that I see no good reason to believe in gods for lack of evidence, and teach him the difference between a falsifiable argument and those which support belief in gods, encouraging him to decide for himself what to believe or not.

(January 4, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Kingpin Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 3:36 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Apology is an art... it is beyond truth and lies... it stimulates the emotions of beauty and drowns hatred.... it's such a beautiful thing...


Yeh... I am crazy

I'll get back to work now

Indeed it is.  I think far too many people think of apologies as a way to make themselves feel better.  You don't apologize to make yourself feel better.  You apologize because you were wrong and you want to restore relationship with the person you wronged.

There are a lot of reasons to apologize. Sometimes you apologize because even though you weren't wrong the apology is necessary. Such as, when a friend of mine confided in me that she planned to commit suicide and I told her parents. I don't think I was wrong, but she needed the apology just the same.

(January 4, 2016 at 5:10 pm)Losty Wrote:

(January 4, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Kingpin Wrote: Indeed it is.  I think far too many people think of apologies as a way to make themselves feel better.  You don't apologize to make yourself feel better.  You apologize because you were wrong and you want to restore relationship with the person you wronged.

There are a lot of reasons to apologize. Sometimes you apologize because even though you weren't wrong the apology is necessary. Such as, when a friend of mine confided in me that she planned to commit suicide and I told her parents. I don't think I was wrong, but she needed the apology just the same.

Certainly that would be a situation where you apologized betraying the trust of a friend which could be classified as wrong in their eyes but justified in yours because of the circumstances.  Either way, you apologize to restore relationship with them, not for your personal feelings.