(January 7, 2016 at 9:53 am)MTL Wrote: [quote pid='1163629' dateline='1452120108']
If He exists to be 'found' at all, the path to Him will be through real honest and real Truth,
...read, Science...not through Religious gobbledegook passed off as 'truth'.

It is ironic to me that for all Religion has opposed Science over the thousands of years,
it is through Science that we will likely find Him, if He is there to be found at all.

[/quote]

The problem with this is the fact that no god is any good to a believer without being also mysterious, and beyond human capacity for understanding. If it can be observed and studied, then no matter how great it may be it isn't a god, it can only be something great. Therefore, if there really is a person, persons, or some force of intelligence which is responsible for the origin of our universe, and the day comes that we can explain it, then on that day it will destroy all organized religions which have asserted the existence of a creator/designer. Even if mortal humans are able to meet Yahweh and Jesus, and they turn out to be exactly what the Xtians say they are, this will be bad for Xtianity when they are no longer mysterious, because you cannot apply faith to something which is or can be understood. Smart religious leaders have understood over the centuries that the more people learn through science, the less mystery it leaves them to exploit, therefore religion and science cannot truly be non-overlapping magisteria - they are by the nature of their existence anti-religion and anti-science.

From the Catholic liturgy: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith...

(January 7, 2016 at 12:11 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(January 7, 2016 at 9:53 am)MTL Wrote: [quote pid='1163629' dateline='1452120108']
If He exists to be 'found' at all, the path to Him will be through real honest and real Truth,
...read, Science...not through Religious gobbledegook passed off as 'truth'.

It is ironic to me that for all Religion has opposed Science over the thousands of years,
it is through Science that we will likely find Him, if He is there to be found at all.

The problem with this is the fact that no god is any good to a believer without being also mysterious, and beyond human capacity for understanding. If it can be observed and studied, then no matter how great it may be it isn't a god, it can only be something great. Therefore, if there really is a person, persons, or some force of intelligence which is responsible for the origin of our universe, and the day comes that we can explain it, then on that day it will destroy all organized religions which have asserted the existence of a creator/designer. Even if mortal humans are able to meet Yahweh and Jesus, and they turn out to be exactly what the Xtians say they are, this will be bad for Xtianity when they are no longer mysterious, because you cannot apply faith to something which is or can be understood. Smart religious leaders have understood over the centuries that the more people learn through science, the less mystery it leaves them to exploit, therefore religion and science cannot truly be non-overlapping magisteria.

From the Catholic liturgy: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith...

[/quote]

MTL wrote:

I'm having difficulty responding;

edit pending, it's not quoting properly; one moment.

(January 7, 2016 at 12:11 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(January 7, 2016 at 9:53 am)MTL Wrote: [quote pid='1163629' dateline='1452120108']
If He exists to be 'found' at all, the path to Him will be through real honest and real Truth,
...read, Science...not through Religious gobbledegook passed off as 'truth'.

It is ironic to me that for all Religion has opposed Science over the thousands of years,
it is through Science that we will likely find Him, if He is there to be found at all.

The problem with this is the fact that no god is any good to a believer without being also mysterious, and beyond human capacity for understanding. If it can be observed and studied, then no matter how great it may be it isn't a god, it can only be something great. Therefore, if there really is a person, persons, or some force of intelligence which is responsible for the origin of our universe, and the day comes that we can explain it, then on that day it will destroy all organized religions which have asserted the existence of a creator/designer. Even if mortal humans are able to meet Yahweh and Jesus, and they turn out to be exactly what the Xtians say they are, this will be bad for Xtianity when they are no longer mysterious, because you cannot apply faith to something which is or can be understood. Smart religious leaders have understood over the centuries that the more people learn through science, the less mystery it leaves them to exploit, therefore religion and science cannot truly be non-overlapping magisteria - they are by the nature of their existence anti-religion and anti-science.

From the Catholic liturgy: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith...

[/quote]

MTL wrote:

Quote:That simply means that finding God would destroy Religion in its current form
...and to that I say, so what?

It would be the height of hypocrisy for all the Theists of the world to talk about "finding God"
and one day residing in the House of their Father,
if they ultimately shy away from the moment of meeting,
simply because the Mystery is no more.

It sorta just underlines what I've always said:

Religion doesn't really serve God.

Religion serves Religion.

God is only of any use to Religion as long as He is a Mystery.

When He becomes Real, Religion has served its purpose
and we have evolved beyond the need of it,
like a prehensile tail that we no longer need,
because we no longer need to swing from the trees for our safety.

And, it underlines what we've already been discussing:

Religion only wants its own "truth".

The actual Truth about God/Origin of the Universe may actually be the exact opposite of what Religion wants.

It's like another analogy I've made to illustrate the difference between Religion and God:

God is like the authentic, high-end designer boutique, whose merchandise is genuine Truth.

Religion is the cheap knock-off tent set up around the corner, touting fake "truth" as the genuine article.

Not only is Religion not the real McCoy,
but it is actually working against it...
...siphoning off God's customer base.

Quote:That simply means that finding God would destroy Religion in its current form
...and to that I say, so what?

It would be the height of hypocrisy for all the Theists of the world to talk about "finding God"
and one day residing in the House of their Father,
if they ultimately shy away from the moment of meeting,
simply because the Mystery is no more.

It sorta just underlines what I've always said:

Religion doesn't really serve God.

Religion serves Religion.

God is only of any use to Religion as long as He is a Mystery.

When He becomes Real, Religion has served its purpose
and we have evolved beyond the need of it,
like a prehensile tail that we no longer need,
because we no longer need to swing from the trees for our safety.

And, it underlines what we've already been discussing:

Religion only wants its own "truth".

The actual Truth about God/Origin of the Universe may actually be the exact opposite of what Religion wants.

It's like another analogy I've made to illustrate the difference between Religion and God:

God is like the authentic, high-end designer boutique, whose merchandise is genuine Truth.

Religion is the cheap knock-off tent set up around the corner, touting fake "truth" as the genuine article.

Not only is Religion not the real McCoy,
but it is actually working against it...
...siphoning off God's customer base.

Did I miss that somewhere? Sorry if I did, but anyway I was just trying to bring the point home that the idea which so many people have that science and religion may coexist is a sad fallacy. Right now there may still be some fine doctors of medical science who are also religious, but when I see what the religious ideas of AAA are doing to people's basic understanding of how our cells operate and regenerate, the future looks bleak - it makes me shudder at the thought of a medical procedure beginning with a prayer while I'm under the gas!

EDIT: Ok, think I get you now - your idea is that there is (or may be) a real god, but it fits none of the descriptions nor identities which the religious have asserted. I believed that for awhile, before I came to understand more the underlying conflict between science and religion. Scientific fact isn't mystery, therefore a found creator, however great (or not) would never be a god because finding, observing, and explaining it would downgrade it's "God" status to "Great" (or "Goob").

MTL, I appreciate you sharing your experience here! Your story is moving, and interesting to me at the same time. For me, I think why I’m viewing it as something ‘divine,’ is that I wasn’t seeking or asking anymore. I truly had grown indifferent. No more prayers, nothing. I had accepted that atheism/agnosticism was the path I had come to, after exploring other religions last year. And I was okay with it, at that time. So, my experience took me by surprise, and there were subsequent experiences, of which seemed surreal, and again, I wasn’t seeking to understand God anymore. Or look for Him, or any of that. I decided last year after these things had happened, to google to see the faith experiences of others, and the after feelings were nearly identical to me. I have sort of lost the desire to cling to secular things like I once did. And that change happened pretty rapidly. I love my life, and the people in it, but I sort of lost interest in chasing the things I used to chase to ‘make’ me happy. I appreciate your understanding and perception of it, and yes…maybe a better way to explain it is that it’s just real for me, and no I’m not crazy lol and that is where perhaps we can all share some common ground. I don’t expect anyone to believe me, or even desire that, but when asked why I returned to Christianity…this is why. I wasn’t seeking to return, that’s the interesting thing about my experience. There are days when I sit back and think…wow, I’m back to faith? Lol Didn’t see that coming.

Much of the Bible is allegory though, and many of the parables are designed to teach the reader a greater moral, using the parable as a backdrop. I’m of the opinion though that one doesn’t need to stop asking questions or even doubting certain things in the Bible, in order to profess a love for God. The Bible doesn’t dictate my own faith. Faith is a personal thing, the problem with faith and religion in a broader sense, is that many religious people want to control others with it, and that’s why there is so much angst between atheists and theists, me thinks. I have no right to tell someone to believe what I believe. We all have the freedom to believe as we wish.

Thanks for listening!

(January 7, 2016 at 1:00 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: EDIT: Ok, think I get you now - your idea is that there is (or may be) a real god, but it fits none of the descriptions nor identities which the religious have asserted. I believed that for awhile, before I came to understand more the underlying conflict between science and religion. Scientific fact isn't mystery, therefore a found creator, however great (or not) would never be a god because finding, observing, and explaining it would downgrade it's "God" status to "Great" (or "Goob").

Ok, so you're only willing to use the term "God" for any one, great Creator of All Things,
as long as that Creator remains a mystery.

Unlike you, I take no issue with continuing to call such an entity by the name of "God",
or rather I think it is not really worth quibbling about,
because even if we come to know that Being, and understand Him,
it doesn't mean that He is any less the Ultimate Creator,
simply because He is no longer mysterious.

Lightning was once deemed supernatural.

We came to understand the science behind it.

But it's still lightning.

It's power is not diminished simply because we understand it better.

The Creator of the Universe would not cease to be the Creator of the Universe
just because we eventually come to know or understand Him...or even be equal to Him.

Maybe that was His plan, all along

...it may only be Religion that wants us to think of God in terms of a mysterious Being
that jealously holds sway over our ignorance and fear of Him,
thus continuing His power over us.

Again, the Religious concept of God that we have been taught may well be erroneous.

It may be that God exists, and is not jealous or wrathful at all,
and gave us Science, and a brain to understand it,
with the ultimate intention of us finding Him.

Maybe in that sense we really are all Sons and Daughters of God,
and He looks forward to the day we mature and can look at Him at eye-level,
like any parent does.

Again, I don't personally, necessarily believe in God, myself; I merely allow for it;
partly out of scientific objectivity;
but also because I think that it allows a stepping-stone for Theists,
which outright Atheism does not.

I don't mind Deism.

What I resent is Religion telling us WHAT to believe ABOUT God,
and telling us to shut out Science to do it.

So,

I raise the point that if there IS a God,
it very well might be that our sophisticated brains, our curiousity, our five senses, Evolution, and Science,
are the tools He gave us to find Him, in the long run;

to illustrate to Theists, that, for all they know,
in their zeal to hold up their fake religious "truth" about God,
they may well be working against the real Truth...and therefore against God.

EDIT:

I have also, similarly, tried to illustrate to Theists that, as part of the garbage of Religion,
is the idea that "Sin" is a concept that originated with God,
when it almost certainly originated with man.

Take the Catholic Church and it's concept of the Seven Deadly Sins

(off the top of my head and in no particular order...merely for the sake of making a point):

Greed
Gluttony
Sloth
Lust
Pride
Envy
Wrath

My first observation:  this list has some redundancies:

Ever punch a large number into a calculator and keep hitting the "=" button?

It always reduces to zero, eventually.

That is the common denominator.

Well, similarly,
I think that this list of "sins" hasn't really been reduced to their lowest common denominator.

When people act greedy or gluttonous or slothful or proud or envious or wrathful,
it is often motivated by a deeper-seated issue;

I think you could argue that all human behavior
can basically be reduced even further down,
to either LUST or FEAR,
that has gotten out of balance.

My second observation:

It is extremely telling, to my mind, that FEAR didn't make the list.

And it should.

If you are a Christian, you should have nothing to Fear.

To Fear anything in this life, other than God, is a demonstration of lack of Faith, isn't it?
And therefore a Sin, right??

Consider the Apostles out in a boat with Jesus, terrified of the storm
and begging Jesus to calm the angry waters;
Jesus chastised them for their Fear, and therefore their obvious lack of Faith.

So why didn't the Catholic Church, in its infinite wisdom,
see fit to include Fear in this list of fundamental Sins,
since Faith is of paramount importance??

Of course, we as non-Theists realize it is very obviously because FEAR is what Religion uses to keep the flock in line.

It is part of their classic smoke-and-mirrors:
they use Promises of Heaven,
and when that fails, Threats of Hell,
to keep people in line.


They WANT you to be afraid.

So they're not going to make it a sin to be afraid, even though they should.


Now, having illustrated that FEAR should be on this list, and isn't,

I also need to point out that LUST, in and of itself, is NOT a "sin" at all!!

Rather, I again argue to Theists that LUST and FEAR might, again,
be regarded to create BALANCE
....as part of God's design.

LUST:  All the appetites that drive us forward...not just for sex, but for food, air....Lust for Life.

FEAR:  The brakes on the car...that which gives us pause; keeps us safe


And I would posit that if there really is any such thing as "sin" it is not simply "Lust", in and of itself,
but rather when these two get out of balance:

LUST, when out of control, becomes obsessive or addictive behavior

FEAR, when out of control, becomes a phobia that keeps you from living life


And so sick and convoluted is the effect that Religion has on people,
that even while Religion claims to be upholding God's law,

if anything,

Religion is perverting the natural law
and telling people to feel bad about their natural, God-given Lust.

it is the same reason I point out to Theists that homosexuality may well be part of God's design, too,
for all we know,
and to criticize anything that occurs naturally is to risk criticizing God,

again, because we come back to the cognitive dissonance that Religion asks us to accept:

The difference between TRUTH, vs their religious "truth".

(January 7, 2016 at 1:32 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: MTL, I appreciate you sharing your experience here! Your story is moving, and interesting to me at the same time. For me, I think why I’m viewing it as something ‘divine,’ is that I wasn’t seeking or asking anymore. I truly had grown indifferent. No more prayers, nothing. I had accepted that atheism/agnosticism was the path I had come to, after exploring other religions last year. And I was okay with it, at that time. So, my experience took me by surprise, and there were subsequent experiences, of which seemed surreal, and again, I wasn’t seeking to understand God anymore. Or look for Him, or any of that. I decided last year after these things had happened, to google to see the faith experiences of others, and the after feelings were nearly identical to me. I have sort of lost the desire to cling to secular things like I once did. And that change happened pretty rapidly. I love my life, and the people in it, but I sort of lost interest in chasing the things I used to chase to ‘make’ me happy. I appreciate your understanding and perception of it, and yes…maybe a better way to explain it is that it’s just real for me, and no I’m not crazy lol and that is where perhaps we can all share some common ground. I don’t expect anyone to believe me, or even desire that, but when asked why I returned to Christianity…this is why. I wasn’t seeking to return, that’s the interesting thing about my experience. There are days when I sit back and think…wow, I’m back to faith? Lol Didn’t see that coming.

Much of the Bible is allegory though, and many of the parables are designed to teach the reader a greater moral, using the parable as a backdrop. I’m of the opinion though that one doesn’t need to stop asking questions or even doubting certain things in the Bible, in order to profess a love for God. The Bible doesn’t dictate my own faith. Faith is a personal thing, the problem with faith and religion in a broader sense, is that many religious people want to control others with it, and that’s why there is so much angst between atheists and theists, me thinks. I have no right to tell someone to believe what I believe. We all have the freedom to believe as we wish.

Thanks for listening!

Thank you for listening, Deidre.

It seems you are really open to hearing what people have to say.

(January 7, 2016 at 5:16 pm)MTL Wrote:

(January 7, 2016 at 1:32 pm)*Deidre* Wrote: MTL, I appreciate you sharing your experience here! Your story is moving, and interesting to me at the same time. For me, I think why I’m viewing it as something ‘divine,’ is that I wasn’t seeking or asking anymore. I truly had grown indifferent. No more prayers, nothing. I had accepted that atheism/agnosticism was the path I had come to, after exploring other religions last year. And I was okay with it, at that time. So, my experience took me by surprise, and there were subsequent experiences, of which seemed surreal, and again, I wasn’t seeking to understand God anymore. Or look for Him, or any of that. I decided last year after these things had happened, to google to see the faith experiences of others, and the after feelings were nearly identical to me. I have sort of lost the desire to cling to secular things like I once did. And that change happened pretty rapidly. I love my life, and the people in it, but I sort of lost interest in chasing the things I used to chase to ‘make’ me happy. I appreciate your understanding and perception of it, and yes…maybe a better way to explain it is that it’s just real for me, and no I’m not crazy lol and that is where perhaps we can all share some common ground. I don’t expect anyone to believe me, or even desire that, but when asked why I returned to Christianity…this is why. I wasn’t seeking to return, that’s the interesting thing about my experience. There are days when I sit back and think…wow, I’m back to faith? Lol Didn’t see that coming.

Much of the Bible is allegory though, and many of the parables are designed to teach the reader a greater moral, using the parable as a backdrop. I’m of the opinion though that one doesn’t need to stop asking questions or even doubting certain things in the Bible, in order to profess a love for God. The Bible doesn’t dictate my own faith. Faith is a personal thing, the problem with faith and religion in a broader sense, is that many religious people want to control others with it, and that’s why there is so much angst between atheists and theists, me thinks. I have no right to tell someone to believe what I believe. We all have the freedom to believe as we wish.

Thanks for listening!

Thank you for listening, Deidre.

It seems you are really open to hearing what people have to say.

Thank you, and the same to you as well
You are easy to share things with, and talk to, here.

Honestly, I love hearing about different beliefs, and alternative ways of viewing life and perspectives. It's only when people come at me from a view of 'you're stupid, you went back to religion,' or 'you're irrational because you went back to faith,' etc...that I tend to tune out. lol If someone wants to attack my beliefs, then at least there is room for discussion.

(January 7, 2016 at 4:48 pm)MTL Wrote: I don't mind Deism.

What I resent is Religion telling us WHAT to believe ABOUT God,
and telling us to shut out Science to do it.

So,

I raise the point that if there IS a God,
it very well might be that our sophisticated brains, our curiousity, our five senses, Evolution, and Science,
are the tools He gave us to find Him, in the long run;

to illustrate to Theists, that, for all they know,
in their zeal to hold up their fake religious "truth" about God,
they may well be working against the real Truth...and therefore against God.

So then you are a deist, which is fine, except for I don't see the necessity for the preconceived presumptions which deism carries when it approaches the big question. There may be one god, there may be thousands of gods, and we don't know the names nor one single word on the bio on even one of whoever he, she, it, or they are. A real god would necessarily have intelligence, but science reveals only a universe which has been unfolding without any to drive its changes.

So why do you think any intelligent being who is capable of intervening in our lives would care about us, when it is in no way plain to see that he ever has done anything for anybody? Why do you think he would waste 13.5 years waiting for stupid humans to arise and fuck with it all? What was the point in the existence of billions of other species which are no more?

The more you think about it, the more silly the whole idea that there would be any super-being or any intelligence at all involved in our existing the way we are. What you may not be aware of when you say you want to leave open the possibility of one existing all the same is that atheism is not dogmatically nay. On the Dawkins scale of weak to strong (1-7), I admit my infinitesimally small gap down from 7 doesn't leave much of a possibility, but I it still think that's more than the question deserves when theists and desits never fail to fail at providing valid evidence for the assertions they make, and are logically unable to. The problem I see with the full 7 is that I don't believe in doctrines, and the difference between a 6.9999999 atheist and a 7 on an unfalsifiable claim is no doctrine vs. doctrinary. The former is scientific, while the latter is not.

Because I've seen every argument which anyone can make for theism or even deism 1000 times, I will not apologize nor will I answer to charges of atheistic religiosity when I choose not to entertain attempts to show there is a god, and the only reason why I do it here is for the benefit of those who are seeking their freedom from the mental bondage of their religion. So if you (anyone) is reading this and you may have worried there may be an unknown and jealous god out there who you have not been pleasing because you followed the cult of your culture, I hope now you understand why that's really nothing more to worry about than the popular doctrines which you may already know for the crap they are. How could you even possibly address an unknown? It's just unknown, it's existentially unknown. Most importantly, and bleak as this thought may sound, the chances of an existing superbeing in a capacity, willingness, and intention to help bail this world out of it's problems are so close to nonexistent that we really all need to start living as if there will be no such future intervention - we're on our own, and our lives and our children's future is our responsibility.

(January 7, 2016 at 9:14 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(January 7, 2016 at 4:48 pm)MTL Wrote: I don't mind Deism.

What I resent is Religion telling us WHAT to believe ABOUT God,
and telling us to shut out Science to do it.

So,

I raise the point that if there IS a God,
it very well might be that our sophisticated brains, our curiousity, our five senses, Evolution, and Science,
are the tools He gave us to find Him, in the long run;

to illustrate to Theists, that, for all they know,
in their zeal to hold up their fake religious "truth" about God,
they may well be working against the real Truth...and therefore against God.

So then you are a deist, which is fine, except for I don't see the necessity for the preconceived presumptions which deism carries when it approaches the big question. There may be one god, there may be thousands of gods, and we don't know the names nor one single word on the bio on even one of whoever he, she, it, or they are. A real god would necessarily have intelligence, but science reveals only a universe which has been unfolding without any to drive its changes.

So why do you think any intelligent being who is capable of intervening in our lives would care about us, when it is in no way plain to see that he ever has done anything for anybody? Why do you think he would waste 13.5 years waiting for stupid humans to arise and fuck with it all? What was the point in the existence of billions of other species which are no more?

The more you think about it, the more silly the whole idea that there would be any super-being or any intelligence at all involved in our existing the way we are. What you may not be aware of when you say you want to leave open the possibility of one existing all the same is that atheism is not dogmatically nay. On the Dawkins scale of weak to strong (1-7), I admit my infinitesimally small gap down from 7 doesn't leave much of a possibility, but I it still think that's more than the question deserves when theists and desits never fail to fail at providing valid evidence for the assertions they make, and are logically unable to. The problem I see with the full 7 is that I don't believe in doctrines, and the difference between a 6.9999999 atheist and a 7 on an unfalsifiable claim is no doctrine vs. doctrinary. The former is scientific, while the latter is not.

Because I've seen every argument which anyone can make for theism or even deism 1000 times, I will not apologize nor will I answer to charges of atheistic religiosity when I choose not to entertain attempts to show there is a god, and the only reason why I do it here is for the benefit of those who are seeking their freedom from the mental bondage of their religion. So if you (anyone) is reading this and you may have worried there may be an unknown and jealous god out there who you have not been pleasing because you followed the cult of your culture, I hope now you understand why that's really nothing more to worry about than the popular doctrines which you may already know for the crap they are. How could you even possibly address an unknown? It's just unknown, it's existentially unknown. Most importantly, and bleak as this thought may sound, the chances of an existing superbeing in a capacity, willingness, and intention to help bail this world out of it's problems are so close to nonexistent that we really all need to start living as if there will be no such future intervention - we're on our own, and our lives and our children's future is our responsibility.

I more or less agree.

And I'm not Deist.

I'm Agnostic.

I lean heavily toward Atheism, but I leave a narrow margin of possibility that there may be a God, as such.
And in any event, I am stringently Anti-Theism (anti-dogma).

I take my position of Agnosticism because, if nothing else, it is practical:

If you say to a Theist that "God doesn't exist"
then you begin with an impasse.

The reasons why god may, or may not be likely to exist are a bit of a moot point,
since neither can be conclusively proven,
so I don't waste my time giving Theists reasons to abandon their belief in God;
simply because, even if your logic is unassailable,
such an endeavor consumes a huge amount of energy for very little result.

You can argue with the same Theist for your entire life
about all the reasons God probably doesn't exist...and easily get nowhere,

because you are not going to argue a person away from a position that they arrived at, illogically,
by using logic.


But, by contrast:

If you begin a discussion on the subject, with a Theist,
by allowing that it's possible a God may exist,
and then proceed to point out the evils of Religion,
and you may make real progress;

You may at least get them started along the path towards
the realization that just because they have Faith,
does not mean that they necessarily need Religion,

...and in fact, as a person of Faith,
there are plenty of reasons to shun Religion.

I liken Faith in God to planting a seed in good soil, and leaving it up to Nature to see if it grows;

But I compare Religion to heaping manure, six feet deep, on top of that seed,
ostensibly with the purpose of fertilizing the seed, and helping it along towards the Sun,

...but in essence,
really just smothering it in vast quantities of utterly needless, and potentially damaging, shit.


I am personally NOT a Deist. 

Deists believe God exists.

What I said was that I don't mind  Deism...it isn't noxious the way most religions are.  I see it as relatively harmless.

And Deists do NOT assume that God cares about us;
Deists believe there is a God...but they presume to know nothing about that God,
and they reject religious dogma.

Deists observe that there is no evidence that God has taken any discernable interst in mankind
for better or worse, since creating us....to the best of my knowledge.


I find the idea of an Earth filled with Deists
far less noxious than an Earth filled with devoutly religious, dogmatic believers,
from a pragmatic point of view.