(January 28, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Drich Wrote: But again, how is that value NOT programmed into you by the society you live in?

And what would happen to you if society programmed you to do the opposite as with Nazi Germany and the vast majority of the German population at that time??

But how is that any different than your situation? You would have us believe your morality comes from the bible. What if the 'bible' you'd been given was Mein Kamph?

(January 28, 2016 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 27, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Empathy is not a propaganda controlled response, if it was then it would not appear in all societies. 

lol.. It doesn't! While empathy is a core 'value' of western society it does not mean all soceities have been trained to tap empathy. North Korea is a big middle finger to your idea that all societies have empathy. Thier empathy for their fellow man has been trained out of them, their is only loyalty and love for their leaders. This is demonstrated over and over by families turning on it's members because someone didn't love their leader as he should. The fact that empathy can be removed from people or it can be trained in or even magnified by definition means it is not a core value. The fact that we don't see abortion as killing babies speak volumes on how empathy can be controlled by propaganda. We take the most basic and primal of all of our instincts (protect our offspring) use a different language's word for baby (fetus) and all attachments society has for our children are just gone. It's because we are trained/condition to suspend empathy.

[/quote]
With the correct psychological conditioning you can convince someone that they are a chair. The human pysche is plastic and fallible, that is why skepticism is important. You can't just basis you moral system off of what 'feels' good, you actually have to think about what it is like in the other person's shoes, and the effects of your actions. Most propoganda is to shutdown that reasoning, because the overwhelming evidence is human beings are very similiar.  Even in north korea they enough basis in empathy that they allow people to kill each other in the streets, and they shit on skepticism more feircely then they shit on anything else. Infact its remarkably similiar to your bible.

Quote:

Quote:The examples you described are examples of the suspension of empathy. Also sympathy and empathy are separate things, empathy is the ability to understand the thoughts and feelings of others. If you notice, all attempts in the past to wipe out others groups were followed with dehumanizing propoganada, that not manipulating empathy, its trying to make it go away all together.

I agree with the statement just not your conclusion. How does dehumanizing people so empathy is with held NOT Empathy Being controlled by Propaganda?

Just because someone tells you something is true, doesn't mean it is. That's where skepticism and evidence come in.

Quote:

Quote: What's more is that your morality system openly brags about murdering entire groups and is proud of it.

Actually no.
I am not an Old testament Jew, therefore my 'religion' does not command nor brag about genocide.
That said. I do not have a problem with destroying a whole people if they can be rightfully identified as evil.
I know you proably cant see straight to read the rest of this right now but just incase you can, I want to also point out we in the US have already done this very thing. Not to mention 2 or 3 more generations into a middle eastern conflict, a few cities of our dirty bombed or nuked, a fallen president or two and 'pop morality' will also find away to justify the whole sale destruction of an entire people as well in post modern times.

Actually every one of those choices has been not only debated, but even outright condemned by members of the public, where as your proposed moral system doesn't have any room for that at all. It's do as I say. How does your moral system behave in a moral conundrum like hiroshima? You have a choice. You end the war in a week, but you use the most destructive weapon ever develop by mankind and kill and about 500,000 people in a month or continue the war conventionally and extend it for another 2 years with 2 million dead over those 2 years? So please explain your moral reasoning in this scenario.

Quote:

Quote:You make it clear in this statement that you have never experienced empathy before, as you defined as sympathy for those you've been trained to identify with. Did you know that children as young as 3 understand that when you hit someone else it hurts? And that this has been present in every culture where children have been observed. Now of course through how your raised this basic empathy is turned off, but its easy to discover again if you try to understand another person from a rational point of veiw. However I can't help but feel that discribing empathy to you is like describing color to a blind man.

But again, the fact that empathy can be turn on or off makes it subject to pop morality. If you want to talk about who the stupid one is in this conversation answer my question honestly. The subject of empathy came up when I asked what 'force/principle' do you possess that would transcend the pull of pop morality, and keep you from being like one of the german citizens who fell into Nazism by simply following the tides of pop morality in their time and culture?

That's easy, it's called skepticism and evidence. plenty of germans did show skepticism and opposed hitler, thats why he ran dachau.

Quote:Now you admit that empathy can be trained or controlled... Do you not understand that our cultures tell us who to have empathy for and whoo not to have it for, just like the nazis did with the Jews? Just like we do with unborn Babies?

My culture doesn't dictate who I identify with though. For example I identify with liu bei from han dynasty china, I have empathy for erwin rommel, I admire yousef karsh. All people from cultures radically different from my own. What if I told I have some empathy for hitler? Or Lenin? Because I have empathy for both. After all hitler was a tortured soul. That doesn't mean I forget what he did and what he was.

Quote:So then if Empathy is controllable by the culture, it is not a force that will trancend the culture and help you define right and wrong because the culture will control who it is you will have empathy for. So again if the culture makes a hard left into evil then you can be sure your empathy will have been long switched off so you can march right over who the culture wants gone.

And millions of examples of humans defying their cultural norms for what they thought was right what? Just didn't happen? I guess the gulags were empty.
Now honest question for you. Can you explain to me why and how your moral system is better without envoking a god?[/quote]

(January 28, 2016 at 8:39 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(January 28, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Drich Wrote: But again, how is that value NOT programmed into you by the society you live in?

And what would happen to you if society programmed you to do the opposite as with Nazi Germany and the vast majority of the German population at that time??

But how is that any different than your situation?  You would have us believe your morality comes from the bible.  What if the 'bible' you'd been given was Mein Kamph?

christians would turn out like the nazi's

(January 28, 2016 at 9:37 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(January 28, 2016 at 8:39 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: But how is that any different than your situation?  You would have us believe your morality comes from the bible.  What if the 'bible' you'd been given was Mein Kamph?

christians would turn out like the nazi's

You mean even more so?

(January 28, 2016 at 11:38 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(January 28, 2016 at 9:37 pm)dyresand Wrote: christians would turn out like the nazi's

You mean even more so?

They would use their guns instead of parodying them around.

Quote:Drich
but if not society who teach you empathy?

Empathy is innate. Although it can be nurtured and/or encouraged, it cannot be taught.

Quote:Drich

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In my Nazi illustration Empathy was turn off for the Jews. Nazis used 'science' to 'prove' that the jew was not really human, that they were a semian form of a roach and were sapping all of the natural resources and infecting and killing the pure 'germans.' over time and through much propaganda empathy was removed from the jews because Germany sucessfully took away their humanity/human classification.

We have done similar things with unborn babies and even partially born babies. anyone we deem an active terrorist, or radicalized muslim.. So as you can see it has happened in your life right under your nose, and you gave little to no thought about it. Meaning you have no issue when the people who shot up Paris where themselves killed, or when a woman 'exercises her right to choose.' In both cases is not a human life extinguished? in both cased were they not killed in horrific ways? If you were to kill a 2 year old the way an abortion clinic kills an unborn or partially born baby would it not get a different response from you? You could even take the same child and look at a pre birth death verse a post birth death, and use the same method on the same child and one method is fine while the other deserves life in prison...

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If your empathy is not being controlled by the pop culture then why is your reaction not the same? Why does propaganda deem it ok in one instance and immoral in another?

You kind of answered your own question, didn't you? My reactions in these situations are different, because the situations are different. In a scenario where ending a life is involved, there can be more than ONE question of morality to be taken into consideration and weighed. You're oversimplifying such scenarios by regarding certain opinions on them as simply 'going with flow', as opposed to acknowledging the existence of complex moral conflicts/ moral dilemmas.

Quote:Drich
So again my question then becomes if Pop culture controls your empathy (as in the case with Nazi Germany) what can you use to determine if the culture goes too far/turn evil?

I find the idea of "Pop culture"controlling my empathy quite ridiculous, but I'll answer your question: If the upper echelons of "Pop culture" somehow managed to develop technology capable of disabling my empathy chip, I suppose I'd have to rely on my memory of right and wrong to recognize evil. Don't even think about creating the additional caveat of having my mind/memory wiped in the next scenario .  

In all seriousness, I understand how someone could feel as though the entire world had gone mad during the time of Nazi Germany, but the truth of the matter is that something also prompted scores of people to push back against Hiltler's regime by joining the Resistance, becoming spies, aiding Jews in escaping detection and capture, etc. All at tremendous personal risk to themselves and often their own families. Which do you think is more likely to be the primary motivating factor capable of inspiring such a response? Unquestionable adherence to a morality that's based off of the premise of obedience to a pre-determined set of rules, OR being able to identify with entire families set to be carted off, tortured, and exterminated, as fellow human beings?

(January 28, 2016 at 12:33 pm)Drich Wrote: That said Homosexual behavior will always be an unrighteous sexual act.

Nope.

Go fuck yourself.

(January 29, 2016 at 9:49 am)Evie Wrote:

(January 28, 2016 at 12:33 pm)Drich Wrote: That said Homosexual behavior will always be an unrighteous sexual act.

Nope.

Go fuck yourself.

Yes, but use a cactus to make it more memorable.  No lube for you!

Drich having a good time:

(January 28, 2016 at 6:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Oh one more thing:

Apologists for the morality we see in the bible/Quran sound like they're writing an essay titled, "Why I deserve the daily beatings from my father".

I will never cease to be amazed that you all still can't get that the 'daily beatings' aren't for the Father's children... they are for those who arent.