Defiantely for unions for all the stated reasons. What makes a country a free country are the counterbalances to the powerful.

(February 20, 2011 at 2:10 am)Minimalist Wrote: I don't know how it is where you are but here the problem is that the employers outsource production work to cheap facilities overseas. Yes, unions are in decline but American manufacturing is even farther in the shitter.

I hope you aren't like Adrian and think that trusting the corporate whores to do the right thing by the working man is the way to go?

Why do they outsource? Because labour gets priced beyond the point where it's viable. Why is America's manufacturing sector in the shit? Because their labour costs are unsustainable.

No, I don't trust the corporations to look out for workers because I don't count on them to do it in the first place - It's not their responsibility. I'm the one with time to sell, It's up to me to get the most money I can in exchange for my time, I don't expect to sit in a job being complacent and get drip fed pay rises by my employers - If I want to earn more I upskill, If I don't think I'm being paid enough for my time I negotiate or seek other employment.

Point well made V0ID...Same over here...

Thanks to Unions forcing the price of labour up we now "outsource" much of our manufacturing industry overseas. There is a clear imbalance between Labour costs and the price of materials/ finished product. While I am not up on the intricacies of global economics and GDP it does seem to me that thanks to unionism we have out priced what industry sees as the 'unskilled worker' and are currently importing 'unskilled' workers via our open immigration policies. Mind you the 'skilled' workforce that has immigrated (see imported) leaves much to be desired as far as knowledge and skills.
Just my observations regarding the transport, medical and mining industries

(February 18, 2011 at 7:56 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(February 18, 2011 at 2:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: They are all that the working man has.

That must be why they're in decline right? And why the vast majority of the working population doesn't use them? Or perhaps the minuscule wage rises that they bring aren't actually worth the fees to belong to one...

I was active trade unionist almost all of my working life.(When I was able) A union is only as good as its members and only effective when the members are in control.Once the executive stops being the servant and becomes the master, the union goes down the gurgler.

Trade unions arise in responses to exploitation. In my country the need is not as great as 100 years ago,when unions formed.

Thanks soley to unions, today we have things such as :the 40 hour week, safe working conditions, workman's compensation,paid sick time,paid holidays equal pay for women. The aim of trade unions as I've always seen it is a 'fair go' for workers, from unscrupulous employers,and I've worked for a few of them.

If you really want to see how things were before trade unionism,do some research on wages and conditions in nineteenth and twentieth century mine and factories--then have a look at the plight of outworkers in the rag trade in your own country today. They have no unions.

(February 20, 2011 at 4:53 am)padraic Wrote:

(February 18, 2011 at 7:56 pm)theVOID Wrote:

(February 18, 2011 at 2:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: They are all that the working man has.

That must be why they're in decline right? And why the vast majority of the working population doesn't use them? Or perhaps the minuscule wage rises that they bring aren't actually worth the fees to belong to one...

I was active trade unionist almost all of my working life.(When I was able) A union is only as good as its members and only effective when the members are in control.Once the executive stops being the servant and becomes the master, the union goes down the gurgler.

Trade unions arise in responses to exploitation. In my country the need is not as great as 100 years ago,when unions formed.

Thanks soley to unions, today we have things such as :the 40 hour week, safe working conditions, workman's compensation,paid sick time,paid holidays equal pay for women. The aim of trade unions as I've always seen it is a 'fair go' for workers, from unscrupulous employers,and I've worked for a few of them.less.

If you really want to see how things were before trade unionism,do some research on wages and conditions in nineteenth and twentieth century mine and factories--then have a look at the plight of outworkers in the rag trade in your own country today. They have no unions.

But that's my point Pad....those things you have cited ARE great wins for unionism...(err except the equal pay for women..I've yet to see that) But thanks to those wins we now have a workforce that is unable to work because of it.

This is an argument for slave labour in your own country.

Big companies outsource to countries with no labour laws so they can exploit the population there.

If you think that you'd like to see your 8 year old son work for 18 hours a day and sleep in the factory on blanket on the floor then lets get rid of the unions, then see how long the labour laws last once the workers are effectivly powerless.

The rich will act like the robber barrons they are here instead of in china, indonesia, africa etc.

How do we know that thats the way they will act? because they do it now, just not in your back yard.

The answer to your domestic woes is to raise standards of workers rights abroad not to lower ours.

(February 20, 2011 at 2:27 am)theVOID Wrote: Why do they outsource? Because labour gets priced beyond the point where it's viable. Why is America's manufacturing sector in the shit? Because their labour costs are unsustainable.

Tosh

Companies outsource because they're in the game for profit. If they can get a job done cheaper elsewhere they will. The onset of telecommunications put that whole workforce out of a job. The employers are the only ones still getting pay rises that exponentially increase. (How do you justify a £2million a year bonus???)

Same with cheap labour using immigrants. Companies have no scruples about breaking the law. Look at the Oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico - saving money by cutting corners. Environment goes down the pan - so what - the Oil companies are still making outrageous profits.

We're spiralling down now to conditions for employees worse than those experienced by our Victorian counterparts. We're all in this and it won't stop until there's a balance of trade between east and west, when we're on the same wage as our Indian and Chinese counterparts.

Upskill all you like, I can guarantee there are countless Indian and Chinese professionals with equal and better skills than you willing to do your job for a fraction of what you would.

(February 20, 2011 at 7:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 20, 2011 at 2:27 am)theVOID Wrote: Why do they outsource? Because labour gets priced beyond the point where it's viable. Why is America's manufacturing sector in the shit? Because their labour costs are unsustainable.

Tosh

Companies outsource because they're in the game for profit. If they can get a job done cheaper elsewhere they will. The onset of telecommunications put that whole workforce out of a job. The employers are the only ones still getting pay rises that exponentially increase. (How do you justify a £2million a year bonus???)

Same with cheap labour using immigrants. Companies have no scruples about breaking the law. Look at the Oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico - saving money by cutting corners. Environment goes down the pan - so what - the Oil companies are still making outrageous profits.

We're spiralling down now to conditions for employees worse than those experienced by our Victorian counterparts. We're all in this and it won't stop until there's a balance of trade between east and west, when we're on the same wage as our Indian and Chinese counterparts.

Upskill all you like, I can guarantee there are countless Indian and Chinese professionals with equal and better skills than you willing to do your job for a fraction of what you would.

That's what he said fr0d0

I'm not so certain that 'Law' comes in to it......

"Companies outsource because they're in the game for profit."

That is exactly why we must put a leash on companies and corporations. The goal is profit, and they will do whatever they can to make that profit, be it slavery or even treason. Corporations being allowed to be considered "individuals" and able to give as much money to any politician they want is a VERY BAD THING.

(February 20, 2011 at 7:08 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: That's what he said fr0d0

I'm not so certain that 'Law' comes in to it......

Not exactly what he said