(February 22, 2016 at 4:59 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I swear, Jenny, if you prove to be responsible for opening that A/S/K can of bullshit in this thread . . . to the moon! To the moon!

I don't want to go back there either, but if she needs to go back I must take her.

(February 23, 2016 at 1:12 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 22, 2016 at 1:35 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: There has never been a communist country as defined by Karl Marx, not one. So your pointing at China and Russia etc is of no real use. remember China is at this moment probably more capitalistic than the US and Russia and Korea they are bastardisations of the idea.

Their has never been a communist country defined by the book animal farm either (where literal pigs become the ruling class) so, then what's your point?

My point is the fact that communism always seems to break down into the 'animal farm pattern' (Per the two biggest examples China and Russia)  means that, that particular incarnation of communism is the only one that works/is viable in the real world, so marx ideas be dammed, because in the end his ideas are little more than idealistic nonsense, that has been tried for over 100 years now with nary a successful example to prove his model.

I was asking for One Example one proven model of society not built or maintained on slavery. Marx's communism is not a viable example by your own admission, in that not one society has ever established that version as a working model. the only working models enslave ALL people to the government.

My point is that any argument you level at Stalinism misses what I mean when I speak of communism. That until now communism has devolved into Stalinism because until recently Soviet countries would exert undo influence over any burgeoning communist country because they would need protection from commie hating idiots in the USA. Countries don't change in isolation,n they exist in a wider world and subject to influences. It is a nuanced thing so obviously above the heads of people who deal in black and white only.

(February 23, 2016 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 22, 2016 at 3:07 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The  illusion is god. Your view is entirely based on his existence.  Until you show he exists,  your point of view is fantasy.

Again Jen-A,

If I could produce God on Demand He would not be God. I would be.

God has established a way for all who seek proof to COME TO HIM. He is not Going to you on your terms.

Sorry, but ASK isn't a method of finding anything except whatever it is you would like to believe. I try to choose what I believe based upon what is not what I'd like to believe.

(February 23, 2016 at 3:20 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(February 23, 2016 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote: Again Jen-A,

If I could produce God on Demand He would not be God. I would be.

God has established a way for all who seek proof to COME TO HIM. He is not Going to you on your terms.

Sorry, but ASK isn't a method of finding anything except whatever it is you would like to  believe.  I try to choose what I believe based upon what is not what I'd like to believe.

We use Ask Seek Knock everyday of our lives. The parable from which this principle is first taught shows how we use this method in obtaining trivial things. Because the only thing required is the humility needed to see one's self in need.

I understand what you are trying to say, in that you want to try and filter everything through a 'science' filter. Let me ask you, would you 'filter' turn by turn direction through the scientific method or what if someone gave you a treasure map, and they showed you what they were able to bring back from following the map themselves? again would you try and filter the map through 'science' to first validate it? or would you simply follow the directions to find out if it was correct?

A/S/K are directions not a theory that can be tested by the scientific method.

(February 23, 2016 at 1:40 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 23, 2016 at 1:12 pm)Drich Wrote: Their has never been a communist country defined by the book animal farm either (where literal pigs become the ruling class) so, then what's your point?

My point is the fact that communism always seems to break down into the 'animal farm pattern' (Per the two biggest examples China and Russia)  means that, that particular incarnation of communism is the only one that works/is viable in the real world, so marx ideas be dammed, because in the end his ideas are little more than idealistic nonsense, that has been tried for over 100 years now with nary a successful example to prove his model.

I was asking for One Example one proven model of society not built or maintained on slavery. Marx's communism is not a viable example by your own admission, in that not one society has ever established that version as a working model. the only working models enslave ALL people to the government.

My point is that any argument you level at Stalinism misses what I mean when I speak of communism. That until now communism has devolved into Stalinism because until recently Soviet countries would exert undo influence over any burgeoning communist country because they would need protection from commie hating idiots in the USA. Countries don't change in isolation,n they exist in a wider world and subject to influences. It is a nuanced thing so obviously above the heads of people who deal in black and white only.

what you don't seem to get is russia and china combined do not need the permission of the US or anyone else to pull off anything they want to do. China especially because the US is not the world power it was in the 1950s or even 1990s. China holds the keys to the US.

The countries that have adopted communism in it's present form do so because it works the way they want it to work, and these countries have the power and authority to maintain that working model. Blame the US all you want for your failed hero's junkie ideology, but know it is not the US who maintains communism in it's present form. It's present form is the natural progression of communism/It's natural evolutionary form when the power of a nation is filter though a very small ruling class.

What has happened in russia and China will inevitable be what will happen each and in every instance communism is tried. History has proven this statement for more than 100 years without even 1 successful working model of marxist communism according to your own admission. Again blame the west if you wish, but know the world does not operate in a vacuum where the politics of other countries does not effect your own. Therefore if Marxist Communism can not survive outside the bubble or vacuum of theory, then it will never be viable for any use other than toilet paper.

Ask - passive

Seek - passive

Knock - passive


A.S.K., the method of choice for those who don't wish to make any personal effort at rational thought or just don't have time for reflection.

(February 24, 2016 at 10:38 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: Ask - passive

Seek - passive

Knock - passive


A.S.K., the method of choice for those who don't wish to make any personal effort at rational thought or just don't have time for reflection.

how so?

(February 24, 2016 at 10:22 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 23, 2016 at 1:40 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: My point is that any argument you level at Stalinism misses what I mean when I speak of communism. That until now communism has devolved into Stalinism because until recently Soviet countries would exert undo influence over any burgeoning communist country because they would need protection from commie hating idiots in the USA. Countries don't change in isolation,n they exist in a wider world and subject to influences. It is a nuanced thing so obviously above the heads of people who deal in black and white only.

what you don't seem to get is russia and china combined do not need the permission of the US or anyone else to pull off anything they want to do. China especially because the US is not the world power it was in the 1950s or even 1990s. China holds the keys to the US.

The countries that have adopted communism in it's present form do so because it works the way they want it to work, and these countries have the power and authority to maintain that working model. Blame the US all you want for your failed hero's junkie ideology, but know it is not the US who maintains communism in it's present form. It's present form is the natural progression of communism/It's natural evolutionary form when the power of a nation is filter though a very small ruling class.

What has happened in russia and China will inevitable be what will happen each and in every instance communism is tried. History has proven this statement for more than 100 years without even 1 successful working model of marxist communism according to your own admission. Again blame the west if you wish, but know the world does not operate in a vacuum where the politics of other countries does not effect your own. Therefore if Marxist Communism can not survive outside the bubble or vacuum of theory, then it will never be viable for any use other than toilet paper.

The bolded part was exactly my point. A true communist country has never been allowed to flower because the US sees communism as a threat and drove burgeoning communist countries into the arms of the soviets by default.

(February 24, 2016 at 2:39 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(February 24, 2016 at 10:22 am)Drich Wrote: what you don't seem to get is russia and china combined do not need the permission of the US or anyone else to pull off anything they want to do. China especially because the US is not the world power it was in the 1950s or even 1990s. China holds the keys to the US.

The countries that have adopted communism in it's present form do so because it works the way they want it to work, and these countries have the power and authority to maintain that working model. Blame the US all you want for your failed hero's junkie ideology, but know it is not the US who maintains communism in it's present form. It's present form is the natural progression of communism/It's natural evolutionary form when the power of a nation is filter though a very small ruling class.

What has happened in russia and China will inevitable be what will happen each and in every instance communism is tried. History has proven this statement for more than 100 years without even 1 successful working model of marxist communism according to your own admission. Again blame the west if you wish, but know the world does not operate in a vacuum where the politics of other countries does not effect your own. Therefore if Marxist Communism can not survive outside the bubble or vacuum of theory, then it will never be viable for any use other than toilet paper.

The bolded part was exactly my point. A true communist country has never been allowed to flower because the US sees communism as a threat and drove burgeoning communist countries into the arms of the soviets by default.

I know what you point was that is why I included in my post. Now if I could only get you to read the last sentence.

It would be like me saying I have invented a true cloaking shield and it completely makes one 100% undetectable/not visually perceivable. However it does not work with any light present.

If Marxism will not work in the presence of other countries then it is not a real/viable social economic system. It is a "cloaking devise" that depends on imagination to work, or in application the total absence of anything that could challenge it.