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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 7:32 am
The way I see it, free will is an illusion.
It looks like we have the freedom to make our choices.... but... hypothetically, if it was possible to make some choice and then go back to exactly the same conditions as before that choice was made..... would you ever choose differently?
e.g.
You're at a store, tons of different yogurt flavors available.... you choose ?... strawberry.
Time rewinds, you're back at that store, the dairy aisle, which flavor will you choose? Remember, you have no memory of your previous choice, time rewound and your experience of it too.
The brain is a physical system... a rather complex system, but physical and, as such, deterministic. You will always choose strawberry, because you are hardwired to choose strawberry. That hard-wiring is time-dependent, so you may choose differently at another time, with different memories and experiences... but, for the same memories and experiences, the same tastes, the same shelves, the same advertisement.... you will always pick strawberry.
There is a conscious decision to go for strawberry, you actively consider all your options, the prices, etc... you feel like you are choosing... and you are... but you will always pick strawberry.
Of what use would be a brain if it knew that it was deterministic? not too much... so evolution didn't select for that particular trait. Science, however... seems to be cruel and gives us these nuggets of intellectualism... I know I do not freely choose things... but I act as if I do choose them all the same, because I must... otherwise, I'm dead.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 7:40 am
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 7:41 am by robvalue.)
I think "you" needs to be your brain, probably. It certainly does not have full control over your body. Many things run automatically and you couldn't make them run any differently. We also have muscle memory, and some reactions only go as far as the spine and not the brain.
Just saying you "can choose to do something" is assuming you had any choice in the first place. You did do something, then you did something else. How can you tell you had a genuine choice? Sure, it feels that way. It doesn't mean it is.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 9:03 am
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 9:04 am by robvalue.)
The funny thing is, the illusion isn't even very intact for me any more. I kind of feel like I don't have free will, ever since I critically examined it.
I have a vague feeling of being in control, but I don't actually believe it. It feels like a front. It requires a magic element on top of the science to become anything like what people talk about as "free will". I'm not convinced it is there. The evidence I notice about myself does not support it.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 10:06 am
Rob, can you slap yourself on your face?
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 10:09 am
I imagine I could, yes, if my brain sends the correct signals to my muscles to perform that action.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 10:36 am
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 10:38 am by ErGingerbreadMandude.)
Congratulations, you have free will.
If you don't believe me, try slapping yourself, eventually you will believe me 
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 11:22 am
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 11:25 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Negative, he has the ability, but ability and will (free or otherwise) are not interchangeable.....or so you've stated. Can you freely will to decide which of your contradictory statements is true, can you freely will to decide precisely what it is you are discussing? Do you possess the ability in either case?
All evidence to the contrary, as regards both, in this thread.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 11:54 am
(March 7, 2016 at 5:45 am)pool the great Wrote: In this case flight would be my goal. Can I undertake any set of actions that may or may not lead me to this goal? Yes, which is what free will is.
That's like saying a slave has free will because he can decide he'd like to escape and be free, even though in all likelihood he'd never achieve his goal, and probably be killed for even trying.
Or saying a woman about to be raped at gunpoint has the free will to take action against her rapist. Sure...but he might just shoot her.
How is this exercising free will?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 12:02 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 12:03 pm by robvalue.)
Uhh...
Because I have the physical capability to do something, I have free will?
You're assuming that I can make a genuine choice to do it, rather than just doing it because that's what was going to happen anyway.
Another big problem is that "I" am not the same person from one moment to the next. "I" am just an abstract idea; my actual body is constantly replacing itself with new bits.
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Free will and humans
March 7, 2016 at 12:03 pm
(March 7, 2016 at 6:50 am)pool the great Wrote: I have control over my actions.
Since I have control over my actions I have free will.
Free will exists because I have control over my actions.
*I have defined free will.
*Demonstrated that I poses free will.
*Showed that free will exists without assuming free will exists.
Except you haven't really demonstrated that you have control over your actions, which if false, demolishes your argument.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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