(March 10, 2016 at 7:31 pm)AJW333 Wrote: So I guess an anti-theistic government would suit you right down to the ground? In terms of anti-theistic regimes of the 20th century how well did they treat their  citizens? Not well when you consider that practically every communist (anti theist) country of the 20th century slaughtered huge numbers of their own people and denied them a host of basic human rights. Consider the USSR,  China, East Germany, Romania, North Korea, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia etc etc. On the other hand, countries that we might consider "Christian" seemed to fare much better. I know where I'd rather live.

Here it is. We old timers know whats coming. INQUISITION. 600 years or so of christian rule. Oh yeah, that went well.

(March 10, 2016 at 3:01 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 9, 2016 at 8:46 pm)AJW333 Wrote: When I use the term "free will" it is with the understanding that it relates to actions that are possible.

When god is the one that decides what is and is not possible- and when to suspend those decisions in the form of answered prayer or miracles- then we already have a god that is limiting free will. To claim that he's now suddenly unwilling to is an entirely arbitrary and self-serving rationalization.

Quote:You may have to reword this as I don't follow the argument.

So, if free will concerns the ability to decide upon an action but not the ability to be automatically successful at it, then god can intervene at the acting stage, without infringing on free will at all. Rapists always get flacid, mass shooters find their bullets always miss, scams never work because bank accounts always mysteriously reverse any fraudulent deposits, that sort of thing. There is no sense in which free will excludes god from acting in the world in whatever way he wishes. That argument is a non-starter.

I wouldn't say that God doesn't interfere with free will - he does. Does that mean that free will no longer exists? Not at all.

 Freedom of speech exists but there are limitations to it and it is possible that some people are not able to exercise such a freedom.

---

(March 10, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 10, 2016 at 7:12 am)AJW333 Wrote: Any ideas how sophisticated, self replicating DNA codes wrote themselves from a bunch of random chemicals?

First off: if we can't explain it, does that mean we must default to your god did it?

The way I look at it, there is no such thing as a random code. Entropy takes care of that. Given that all life depends on very sophisticated code, I see that you have a problem with life getting off the ground in the first place.

Random activity = no code. No code = no life.

(March 10, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Esquilax Wrote: In fact, experimental data shows that the building blocks of DNA form naturally in certain circumstances:

Be that as it may, you have to assemble those building blocks in a meaningful sequence to make intelligent code and therefor life. This doesn't happen through random activity.

(March 10, 2016 at 3:11 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Lastly, I'd like to pick up on your comment about reversing entropy, because I think you have a misunderstanding of that term. See, entropy applies to closed systems, and the Earth is not that. The Earth is within a closed system though, which is the universe, and taken on that scale, what we have is an extremely small incidence of an increase in localized order within a much larger system that doesn't decrease in entropy because of this. None of that is precluded within our understanding of entropy, and in fact it's even debatable whether life counts as a decrease in entropy anyway, given what life tends to do as it evolves in complexity. Look at our big-ass cities and tell me life hasn't resulted in disorder greater than would exist on Earth without it.

Well that's an interesting argument but looking at a barren earth 4.5 billion years ago turning into a place that is literally teeming with incredibly complex life forms, it still represents a massive reversal of local entropy, especially considering that the contributions from outside the local system of the earth appear to be somewhat limited.

(March 10, 2016 at 7:09 pm)AJW333 Wrote: If you despise the Christian faith, how on earth could you not feel the same way about Islam?

I don't despise any faith. I only despise some of the self declared faithful. The ones riding the high horse of ignorance and bigotry to win an imaginary god race. What I don't do, as opposed to these self declared faithful, is spewing hatred on a group, just because they don't subscribe to my world view. That lies in the realm of the primitives, regardless if they're believers or not. I reserve my disgust as well as my praise for individuals.

Go figure. And if you find the time, give me the verse where the bible predicts anything concrete. You, being a man of science, would never point to another ambivalent gibberish, I'm sure. So it will be complete with dates, locations and acting persons.

(March 10, 2016 at 3:29 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: If it makes good sense to associate Islam with a worldwide and supernatural dictator, then it makes equal or better sense to associate evangelical Christianity with the same. If it's they who expect this, then it's they who will do their best to bring it.

Are you saying that Christians wish to bring the antichrist?

---

(March 10, 2016 at 6:40 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The requirements for polymerization to occur don't seem to have anything to do with your claims of what was necessary.  You have google, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerization

How about magic book..what does magic book say on the subject?  For comparison, obviously.

We are talking about the formation of DNA via polymerisation. This isn't possible without enzymes that have been previously created by DNA.

---

(March 10, 2016 at 6:43 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(March 10, 2016 at 6:35 pm)AJW333 Wrote: For polymerisation to occur, you have to have a bunch of enzymes which are basically proteins that come from DNA.

Go back to school with you!
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-30274635

"Experts say they have achieved a scientific milestone - creating enzymes out of artificial genetic material that they made in their lab."

The enzymes were created from genetic material. You still have a chicken and egg problem.

Repeating a failed assertion won't make it any more convincing than the first time you foisted it.

(March 10, 2016 at 7:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Correctly predicts?  How would you know? 

The Bible correctly predicts that in the last days, the world will be affected by a system that is dedicated to the denial of Jesus as messiah. This will incorporate Islam which is openly anti-Christ, but is not limited to that religion. Interestingly, the reason I am on this forum is to investigate the rise in atheism - another anti-Christ belief system.

(March 10, 2016 at 7:39 pm)AJW333 Wrote: Well that's an interesting argument but looking at a barren earth 4.5 billion years ago turning into a place that is literally teeming with incredibly complex life forms, it still represents a massive reversal of local entropy, especially considering that the contributions from outside the local system of the earth appear to be somewhat limited.

Somewhat limited?! Do you not see that huge ball of light in the sky?

Quote:In full sun, you can safely assume about 100 watts of solar energy per square foot. If you assume 12 hours of sun per day, this equates to 438,000 watt-hours per square foot per year. Based on 27,878,400 square feet per square mile, sunlight bestows a whopping 12.2 trillion watt-hours per square mile per year.

With these assumptions, figuring out how much solar energy hits the entire planet is relatively simple. 12.2 trillion watt-hours converts to 12,211 gigawatt-hours, and based on 8,760 hours per year, and 197 million square miles of earth’s surface (including the oceans), the earth receives about 274 million gigawatt-years of solar energy, which translates to an astonishing 8.2 million “quads” of Btu energy per year.

In case you haven’t heard, a “quad Btu” refers to one quadrillion British Thermal Units of energy, a common term used by energy economists. The entire human race currently uses about 400 quads of energy (in all forms) per year. Put another way, the solar energy hitting the earth exceeds the total energy consumed by humanity by a factor of over 20,000 times.

http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/how...earth.html

(March 10, 2016 at 8:12 pm)AJW333 Wrote: Are you saying that Christians wish to bring the antichrist?

Some do. I think I already told you about our former member looking forward to the end of times. We don't know to which of the - estimated 40.000 - denominations you subscribe to, but it's rather on the literal side, going by your comments.

(March 10, 2016 at 8:35 pm)AJW333 Wrote:

(March 10, 2016 at 7:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Correctly predicts?  How would you know? 

The Bible correctly predicts that in the last days, the world will be affected by a system that is dedicated to the denial of Jesus as messiah. This will incorporate Islam which is openly anti-Christ, but is not limited to that religion. Interestingly, the reason I am on this forum is to investigate the rise in atheism - another anti-Christ belief system.

So you -are- the magic eight ball I asked you about.  You can tell me that these are the last days.  Why do I need magic book again?  

People have been denying that jesus was a messiah since people started claiming it...the jews, notably, called bullshit from day one...and continue to do so.  It's funny, to me, how much christians value the jewish opinion on all other things...but somehow feel that they can outjew jews here, on the messiah song and dance. Personally, I don't care if jesus -is- or was the messiah, or even existed. I'm not interested.

(March 10, 2016 at 8:35 pm)AJW333 Wrote: The Bible correctly predicts that in the last days, the world will be affected by a system that is dedicated to the denial of Jesus as messiah. This will incorporate Islam which is openly anti-Christ, but is not limited to that religion. Interestingly, the reason I am on this forum is to investigate the rise in atheism - another anti-Christ belief system.

Even if we put any stock in bible gibberish, it's your credulity making something precise out of an ambivalent verse. I can just as well cite Nostradamus and bend his ramblings to suit my needs.

The bible is anything but precise or correct. It's you wanting to believe it is and that's the end of it. Because it fits your particular need for bigotry and finger pointing. We already told you that Isil killed about a hundred times more fellow muslims than christians, but that flies over your head. You didn't even react to it. And that, as opposed to your ramblings is fact. Based on what analysts say.