In order to just follow jesus, one must fist ignore reality.

Red, you gave it a valiant try and I commend you for your efforts, but you are arguing with a person who refuses to use their brain. It's pointless to continue wasting your efforts on such a brainwashed person.

(March 19, 2016 at 12:15 am)Nymphadora Wrote: Red, you gave it a valiant try and I commend you for your efforts, but you are arguing with a person who refuses to use their brain. It's pointless to continue wasting your efforts on such a brainwashed person.

Actually, I rather enjoy this. I honestly hadn't even considered the prospect of convincing her of anything.

(March 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 18, 2016 at 5:13 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: what is your definition of christianity?

I was a fundamentalist for 46 years.  My parents started out Southern Baptist and went further right from there.  For Dr. Petersen-Sparks' purposes, though, we're talking about anyone who holds a literalistic "word of god" view of the bible.

What is your definition of christianity?

(March 19, 2016 at 11:06 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

(March 18, 2016 at 7:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I was a fundamentalist for 46 years.  My parents started out Southern Baptist and went further right from there.  For Dr. Petersen-Sparks' purposes, though, we're talking about anyone who holds a literalistic "word of god" view of the bible.

What is your definition of christianity?

Superstition. Brainwashing. Worshiping a deeply flawed book of evil fables.

(March 19, 2016 at 10:34 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(March 19, 2016 at 12:15 am)Nymphadora Wrote: Red, you gave it a valiant try and I commend you for your efforts, but you are arguing with a person who refuses to use their brain. It's pointless to continue wasting your efforts on such a brainwashed person.

Actually, I rather enjoy this. I honestly hadn't even considered the prospect of convincing her of anything.

You're a braver person than I.

Quote:I've already explained (what page are we on again?) how the traits attributed to Gaud by Christian doctrine are contradicted by reality, by logic, and by the actual Bible. I am not going to repeat myself just because you thought blinking at my responses stupidly would make them disappear.

So have I and you are still not all knowing and your insults still won't elevate you to a place where you are above your own sin.

Quote:No, I just need to know enough about the Universe and enough about the proposed character to be able to conclude that the proposed character doesn't follow the rules I observe in the Universe, nor does it leave evidence of its presence or interference in physical reality. Your Gaud is indistinguishable from something that does not exist.

Since you have come to the conclusion that there is no God then you either don't know enough or are rejecting what you do know. You will still be held accountable for that knowledge.

Quote:And the omni-benevolent god of love will torture me forever in a realm of fire and death, right?


You've said that already, and I'm not sure you realize that it's the equivalent of threatening somebody with the boogey-man or Krampus. I have no reason to believe that your god exists, I have no reason to believe he has the power to torture me forever after I die, and I have no reason to believe that we persist after we die at all. Before you can frighten me with hell, you'd have to convince me that it and your god exist, and you have utterly failed to do so.

Your lack of understand of His love doesn't make you right. Yes, He will send you to hell because of your choice to be evil. 
Ha! God is not a boogey-man and you trying to diminish Him or lie to yourself by saying that I am threatening you won't save you. I am warning you and you know it. Play this game if you wish. 

Quote:That would be why it isn't a perfect plan. A perfect plan would exclude both sin and suffering from possibility. A perfect plan wouldn't wind up damning a third of the angels in heaven and over 99% of humanity. It's a good thing the god of the Bible doesn't exist, because if he did most of us (including you, probably) would be seriously fucked.

You lack understanding of who God is and instead of humbling yourself you cling to your sin. You play the game and you will lose your soul.  You can pretend to be justified in your judgement of God but you don't know what perfect is. You don't know God so your judgement of Him and His ways are faulty and flawed. 

Quote:You do realize you sound like someone who belongs to a blood/death cult when you talk like that, right? The very idea of blood sacrifice is immoral and abominable, and the fact you can convince yourself otherwise is a testament to what religion does to people.

You have read your bible right? 1 Corth 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I don't care what is sounds like it is the truth. You can't say what is immoral or abominable your morals are only at the whims of your own mind which changes. You lack the knowledge or the moral fortitude and purity to judge what is good. 
Lie to yourself if you wish.

Quote:Even a subjective standard like the Golden Rule is more moral than Divine Command theory, which is what you're proposing. Doing what you're told because Gaud said so isn't morality.

Lie to yourself if you wish you lack the knowledge, ability, clarity, understanding of humans and God to make this judgement. All you have said comes from you pride and your wish to justify yourself. Play the game if you choose. 
Ha  I love you man, God is perfect and has no evil in Him. You just admitted that God does speak so you have someone you must give an account to. 

Quote:Gandalf died to protect the Fellowship of the Ring from the Balrog and rose from the dead to save Middle Earth from Sauron.  Why don't you worship Gandalf?

Good old deflections.
Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life

Quote:And that's the criteria Gaud has arbitrarily chosen by making the rules, so his sending people to hell is arbitrary. Thank you for agreeing with me.

More pretending that you are above God and understand all things. This won't justify you.

Quote:So you think I deserve to be burned forever. Wow. That's pretty fucked up. I think you're pretty fucking annoying, but i don't think you deserve to burn in hell forever over it. Just another example of how I'm more moral than both you and your imaginary friend.

Yes you do and so do I and it is only God mercy that keeps me from receiving His wrath. It is pretty f-up because you are, no I am not here to build your self-esteem, so am I but I am getting help and you are dieing in your sin. It is out of God's mercy that you can be saved. You can pretend you have it together and that you aren't a sinner. Lose you soul in your foolish game. 

Quote:I'm not just more moral and more loving, I'm also more powerful.

How do you plan to save yourself from the imminent zombie apocalypse?

And wasting all this time won't save you from the zombies, woman! Put your zombie survival bunker together, then post on the internet. Priorities!

Deflections, lies, mockery none of it will save you.

Quote:I reject your Gaud because there's been no demonstration that it's real.

Lies you don't know everything so you can't honestly make this statement. You will be held accountable for you lies and the truth that you are currently suppressing.
 

Quote:Believing everything I think is what kept me believing in magic from storybooks for so long. I became an atheist when I finally stopped doing that.

You are enjoyable. I love you man and if you keep lying to yourself you will die in your sins.

Quote:Ah...Pascal's Wager...prove I have a soul and then we can talk about where it's going. Also, if the Muslims are right, aren't you kind of fucked? If the only evidence you have is your book, why isn't their book evidence, too?

Nope not Pascal's Wager and I am sorry that you thought that. It is a definite thing, God rule, reigns, and will judge because this world needs to be purified and if you choose sin you will be removed from it. I don't need to prove anything because you know. 
The difference between their book and mine is there isn't the word of God and the fact that you fail to accept that doesn't justify you. 

Quote:See, this is one of the main reasons you're having a hard time convincing anyone. This idea you have that we were never "True Christians" is just ignorant and insulting. You might insist that if I really believed I still would, but I know how sincere I was. I was more active in ministry than you, I believed more in the practical power of the Holy Spirit than you (I was casting evil spirits out of houses, for fuck's sake), and I know the Bible better than you do. Regardless of your assertions to the contrary, I sincerely believed in the saving power of Jesus to such an extent that I actively engaged in spiritual warfare, and now I don't believe he's even real.

You have know idea what is happening in the heart of people who are reading this. 
Also if I could convince someone then they can be unconvinced this isn't what this is. You are dead spiritually in your sin and what you need is a to move from death to life. My words don't have that power only God can give life. So if it is His will that people who are reading this wishe to stop living in their sin and follow after Him then they will receive new life through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. 
YO, dude there are true christian and the only reason you don't want there to be is so that you can justify your rejection of God. I don't know what you saw in your church, but there are people who know the God of the universe. Your past pain and misunderstanding will not justify you on the day of wrath. 
You pride is your problem. Your knowledge about the bible and what is says will never save you. 
Casting out demon is not a proof that you were a christian Matt 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
The fact that you are judging my walk with God against your form of christianity proves that you don't get what this is and you never did. This isn't a resume thing about the level of "holiness" you achieved and how much stuff you did. This is about God and His glory.

The argument of "That was then, this is now" when arguing OT vs NT, does not work.

First off, it is still the same God not a different God. And since Jesus is the incarnation of God himself, you are still dealing with the OT God. And the claims of "I wont be violent anymore" still doesn't work because even the NT Jesus promotes tribalism.

1. Think not that I bring peace, but a sword. That cannot be taken out of context. No matter how peaceful you claim that is, it is still the idea of spreading a club code, which is still promoting tribalism.

2. That also backs up what he says in telling you to abandon family and friends. It is still promoting tribalism.

3. And then even after all that talk of being nice, the end of the book has God and Jesus committing the last and final act of genocide where only a select few get get saved.

Nobody in real life would call it moral, for example, if you had a job, and you didn't like your boss, and you quit and tried to walk out, they followed you out and beat the shit out of you, or murdered you.

It is certainly true you can find very kind motifs in the NT, but that still cannot be separated from the OT or the END Times character, who is still the same GOD from the first page to the last page of the bible.

The only way it it works for the buyer, is to cherry pick.

(March 19, 2016 at 12:24 pm)Rekeisha Wrote:

---

Quote:I've already explained (what page are we on again?) how the traits attributed to Gaud by Christian doctrine are contradicted by reality, by logic, and by the actual Bible. I am not going to repeat myself just because you thought blinking at my responses stupidly would make them disappear.

So have I and you are still not all knowing and your insults still won't elevate you to a place where you are above your own sin.

Quote:No, I just need to know enough about the Universe and enough about the proposed character to be able to conclude that the proposed character doesn't follow the rules I observe in the Universe, nor does it leave evidence of its presence or interference in physical reality. Your Gaud is indistinguishable from something that does not exist.

Since you have come to the conclusion that there is no God then you either don't know enough or are rejecting what you do know. You will still be held accountable for that knowledge.

Quote:And the omni-benevolent god of love will torture me forever in a realm of fire and death, right?


You've said that already, and I'm not sure you realize that it's the equivalent of threatening somebody with the boogey-man or Krampus. I have no reason to believe that your god exists, I have no reason to believe he has the power to torture me forever after I die, and I have no reason to believe that we persist after we die at all. Before you can frighten me with hell, you'd have to convince me that it and your god exist, and you have utterly failed to do so.

Your lack of understand of His love doesn't make you right. Yes, He will send you to hell because of your choice to be evil. 
Ha! God is not a boogey-man and you trying to diminish Him or lie to yourself by saying that I am threatening you won't save you. I am warning you and you know it. Play this game if you wish. 

Quote:That would be why it isn't a perfect plan. A perfect plan would exclude both sin and suffering from possibility. A perfect plan wouldn't wind up damning a third of the angels in heaven and over 99% of humanity. It's a good thing the god of the Bible doesn't exist, because if he did most of us (including you, probably) would be seriously fucked.

You lack understanding of who God is and instead of humbling yourself you cling to your sin. You play the game and you will lose your soul.  You can pretend to be justified in your judgement of God but you don't know what perfect is. You don't know God so your judgement of Him and His ways are faulty and flawed. 

Quote:You do realize you sound like someone who belongs to a blood/death cult when you talk like that, right? The very idea of blood sacrifice is immoral and abominable, and the fact you can convince yourself otherwise is a testament to what religion does to people.

You have read your bible right? 1 Corth 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I don't care what is sounds like it is the truth. You can't say what is immoral or abominable your morals are only at the whims of your own mind which changes. You lack the knowledge or the moral fortitude and purity to judge what is good. 
Lie to yourself if you wish.

Quote:Even a subjective standard like the Golden Rule is more moral than Divine Command theory, which is what you're proposing. Doing what you're told because Gaud said so isn't morality.

Lie to yourself if you wish you lack the knowledge, ability, clarity, understanding of humans and God to make this judgement. All you have said comes from you pride and your wish to justify yourself. Play the game if you choose. 
Ha  I love you man, God is perfect and has no evil in Him. You just admitted that God does speak so you have someone you must give an account to. 

Quote:Gandalf died to protect the Fellowship of the Ring from the Balrog and rose from the dead to save Middle Earth from Sauron.  Why don't you worship Gandalf?

Good old deflections.
Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life

Quote:And that's the criteria Gaud has arbitrarily chosen by making the rules, so his sending people to hell is arbitrary. Thank you for agreeing with me.

More pretending that you are above God and understand all things. This won't justify you.

Quote:So you think I deserve to be burned forever. Wow. That's pretty fucked up. I think you're pretty fucking annoying, but i don't think you deserve to burn in hell forever over it. Just another example of how I'm more moral than both you and your imaginary friend.

Yes you do and so do I and it is only God mercy that keeps me from receiving His wrath. It is pretty f-up because you are, no I am not here to build your self-esteem, so am I but I am getting help and you are dieing in your sin. It is out of God's mercy that you can be saved. You can pretend you have it together and that you aren't a sinner. Lose you soul in your foolish game. 

Quote:I'm not just more moral and more loving, I'm also more powerful.

How do you plan to save yourself from the imminent zombie apocalypse?

And wasting all this time won't save you from the zombies, woman! Put your zombie survival bunker together, then post on the internet. Priorities!

Deflections, lies, mockery none of it will save you.

Quote:I reject your Gaud because there's been no demonstration that it's real.

Lies you don't know everything so you can't honestly make this statement. You will be held accountable for you lies and the truth that you are currently suppressing.
 

Quote:Believing everything I think is what kept me believing in magic from storybooks for so long. I became an atheist when I finally stopped doing that.

You are enjoyable. I love you man and if you keep lying to yourself you will die in your sins.

Quote:Ah...Pascal's Wager...prove I have a soul and then we can talk about where it's going. Also, if the Muslims are right, aren't you kind of fucked? If the only evidence you have is your book, why isn't their book evidence, too?

Nope not Pascal's Wager and I am sorry that you thought that. It is a definite thing, God rule, reigns, and will judge because this world needs to be purified and if you choose sin you will be removed from it. I don't need to prove anything because you know. 
The difference between their book and mine is there isn't the word of God and the fact that you fail to accept that doesn't justify you. 

Quote:See, this is one of the main reasons you're having a hard time convincing anyone. This idea you have that we were never "True Christians" is just ignorant and insulting. You might insist that if I really believed I still would, but I know how sincere I was. I was more active in ministry than you, I believed more in the practical power of the Holy Spirit than you (I was casting evil spirits out of houses, for fuck's sake), and I know the Bible better than you do. Regardless of your assertions to the contrary, I sincerely believed in the saving power of Jesus to such an extent that I actively engaged in spiritual warfare, and now I don't believe he's even real.

You have know idea what is happening in the heart of people who are reading this. 
Also if I could convince someone then they can be unconvinced this isn't what this is. You are dead spiritually in your sin and what you need is a to move from death to life. My words don't have that power only God can give life. So if it is His will that people who are reading this wishe to stop living in their sin and follow after Him then they will receive new life through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. 
YO, dude there are true christian and the only reason you don't want there to be is so that you can justify your rejection of God. I don't know what you saw in your church, but there are people who know the God of the universe. Your past pain and misunderstanding will not justify you on the day of wrath. 
You pride is your problem. Your knowledge about the bible and what is says will never save you. 
Casting out demon is not a proof that you were a christian Matt 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
The fact that you are judging my walk with God against your form of christianity proves that you don't get what this is and you never did. This isn't a resume thing about the level of "holiness" you achieved and how much stuff you did. This is about God and His glory.

---

That's a lot of bible, a lot of asserting, and a lot of not addressing what I said. You keep threatening me with your bully god, and yet you keep failing to provide any reason to believe he's real. I am not scared of your imaginary friend, and I have no reason to be.


The problem with you is that your only source of truth is a dusty old book. It doesn't matter what anybody says about what they believed or what they practiced; your book and your pastor says they weren't for real, so you blindly believe that instead of listening to the people talking to you, who know themselves and their hearts better than you ever could. It doesn't matter what evidence exists in objective reality; your book and your pastor say that an invisible man named Jehovah exists, and you blindly believe that instead of thinking critically about those claims.


You've failed, and so has your supposedly all-powerful Gaud. I'd tell you to let that sink in, but at this point I'm pretty sure nothing sinks into that bony skull of yours.

(March 19, 2016 at 1:28 pm)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(March 19, 2016 at 12:24 pm)Rekeisha Wrote:

---

So have I and you are still not all knowing and your insults still won't elevate you to a place where you are above your own sin.
Since you have come to the conclusion that there is no God then you either don't know enough or are rejecting what you do know. You will still be held accountable for that knowledge.
Your lack of understand of His love doesn't make you right. Yes, He will send you to hell because of your choice to be evil. 
Ha! God is not a boogey-man and you trying to diminish Him or lie to yourself by saying that I am threatening you won't save you. I am warning you and you know it. Play this game if you wish. 
You lack understanding of who God is and instead of humbling yourself you cling to your sin. You play the game and you will lose your soul.  You can pretend to be justified in your judgement of God but you don't know what perfect is. You don't know God so your judgement of Him and His ways are faulty and flawed. 
You have read your bible right? 1 Corth 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I don't care what is sounds like it is the truth. You can't say what is immoral or abominable your morals are only at the whims of your own mind which changes. You lack the knowledge or the moral fortitude and purity to judge what is good. 
Lie to yourself if you wish.

Lie to yourself if you wish you lack the knowledge, ability, clarity, understanding of humans and God to make this judgement. All you have said comes from you pride and your wish to justify yourself. Play the game if you choose. 
Ha  I love you man, God is perfect and has no evil in Him. You just admitted that God does speak so you have someone you must give an account to. 


Good old deflections.
Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life

More pretending that you are above God and understand all things. This won't justify you.

Yes you do and so do I and it is only God mercy that keeps me from receiving His wrath. It is pretty f-up because you are, no I am not here to build your self-esteem, so am I but I am getting help and you are dieing in your sin. It is out of God's mercy that you can be saved. You can pretend you have it together and that you aren't a sinner. Lose you soul in your foolish game. 

Deflections, lies, mockery none of it will save you.

Lies you don't know everything so you can't honestly make this statement. You will be held accountable for you lies and the truth that you are currently suppressing.
 

You are enjoyable. I love you man and if you keep lying to yourself you will die in your sins.
Nope not Pascal's Wager and I am sorry that you thought that. It is a definite thing, God rule, reigns, and will judge because this world needs to be purified and if you choose sin you will be removed from it. I don't need to prove anything because you know. 
The difference between their book and mine is there isn't the word of God and the fact that you fail to accept that doesn't justify you. 
You have know idea what is happening in the heart of people who are reading this. 
Also if I could convince someone then they can be unconvinced this isn't what this is. You are dead spiritually in your sin and what you need is a to move from death to life. My words don't have that power only God can give life. So if it is His will that people who are reading this wishe to stop living in their sin and follow after Him then they will receive new life through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for their sins. 
YO, dude there are true christian and the only reason you don't want there to be is so that you can justify your rejection of God. I don't know what you saw in your church, but there are people who know the God of the universe. Your past pain and misunderstanding will not justify you on the day of wrath. 
You pride is your problem. Your knowledge about the bible and what is says will never save you. 
Casting out demon is not a proof that you were a christian Matt 7:22-23 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
The fact that you are judging my walk with God against your form of christianity proves that you don't get what this is and you never did. This isn't a resume thing about the level of "holiness" you achieved and how much stuff you did. This is about God and His glory.

---

That's a lot of bible, a lot of asserting, and a lot of not addressing what I said. You keep threatening me with your bully god, and yet you keep failing to provide any reason to believe he's real. I am not scared of your imaginary friend, and I have no reason to be.


The problem with you is that your only source of truth is a dusty old book. It doesn't matter what anybody says about what they believed or what they practiced; your book and your pastor says they weren't for real, so you blindly believe that instead of listening to the people talking to you, who know themselves and their hearts better than you ever could. It doesn't matter what evidence exists in objective reality; your book and your pastor say that an invisible man named Jehovah exists, and you blindly believe that instead of thinking critically about those claims.


You've failed, and so has your supposedly all-powerful Gaud. I'd tell you to let that sink in, but at this point I'm pretty sure nothing sinks into that bony skull of yours.

The reason they cling to this despite what we argue, is that they surround themselves with conformation bias. Someone sold them the idea, they see lots of people buying into that same idea, most are indoctrinated into that idea in childhood, so it is the only thing they consider, and all those like minded people to them cannot be wrong. 

But, while I agree we are not frightened by God any more than Yoda, or Darth Vader, they do believe this book and they do vote, and they do have weapons, and that should always be a concern. Good thing about the west, while it preserves their right to believe in that old dusty book, as you put it, it also protects our right to criticize and ridicule that book and it also prevents a rise of a mass that could do harm to us.

It certainly is fiction, but it is also something to be concerned about and watch, not to a paranoid level, but a matter of maintenance. Who knows, most of the time you interact with believers and never know after you part company if they ever change. But some do, and many here were where this person was at.