(March 28, 2016 at 11:36 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(March 28, 2016 at 5:45 pm)athrock Wrote: This is a classic example of why a little knowledge of scripture can be a dangerous thing because the NT also says:

Hebrews 10
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Now, Rocket, if Christians are encouraged by the author or Hebrews to "not giving up meeting together", where, exactly, do you recommend that they meet if they cannot use the buildings which their tax dollars were spent upon? Shouldn't all groups of citizens have equal access to these facilities?

No one, repeat NO ONE, is saying that Christians should cease to meet. But there's a huge difference between meeting to privately (or publicly) practice one's own faith and using the State to further one's religion. Being the only not-like-the-other-kids in a class full of Christians can be very intimidating to a child who just wants to follow the herd-- no one, especially not a teenager, likes to be singled out or left out, with such group activities. 

Sure, but we're talking about two different things now. I'm not advocating for prayer in the classroom during the school day (I could, but I'm not). I thought your objection was to public prayer (when other people can see you) in general since you quoted the passage from Matthew.

Quote:Also, as she pointed out... you don't NEED to meet in the public places, to show your prayers to all who can see, which is why I referenced the "those who pray on the street corner for all to see" verses from Matthew 6. The only purpose of such meetings is to try to proselytize-- even in the radio show, they stated no less than twelve times (that I counted) that "this is a predominantly Christian town" as they lamented that they could no longer host prayers to Jesus at the school board meeting and at the graduation ceremony, or have circle-prayers led by the coaches, etc.

Actually, the reason that some people pray in school buildings is because their church cannot afford to build or buy a building, yet. Another reason would be the obvious desire to ask for God's blessing upon all gathered/participating. Now, there is something to really turn the atheist's crank. Imagine that asking for blessings that would benefit others.

I do have two questions that have come to mind as I am typing.

1. As a FORMER Christian, is there any one Christian that you actually admire for his or her faith and witness to the gospel? Obviously, I'm not asking if you agree with him or her...just whether you can see any good anywhere in Christianity.

2. Regardless of your current feelings about God, do you acknowledge that the Christian moral code (doing unto others, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.) has positive benefits for society as a whole...including for those who are not believers but living among those who are?

Thanks.

(March 29, 2016 at 2:42 pm)athrock Wrote:

(March 28, 2016 at 6:35 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Sure.  Schools should just open their doors to all groups that want to use "buildings their tax dollars were spent upon".   The Muslims should be able to preach to your kids, then the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Satanists, the Wiccans, and we Atheists that you love so much.  We should take the facilities meant for education and just use them for any group that wants them, who cares whether students need to use the gym, or the band room, or the labs.   
     (I'm being sarcastic if you can't tell.)
Oh, but you have no need to worry.  There are church buildings on every corner in the US of A.  And they're tax-exempt.  Now, they're supposed to be taking care of the poor, but they're doing a horrible job of that.  If we taxed the churches, we would have billions of dollars to feed the poor and care for the homeless, just like your Jeebus would want you to do.

Who do the schools belong to if not the citizens who paid for them? So, yeah...equal access to the use of the facilities.

Which is a far cry from allowing Muslim or Christian groups to teach to children, of course. We're talking about weekends and evenings when the buildings are not being used. Picking up a few bucks in rent for the use of a building that is otherwise sitting idle seems like a pretty good use of the taxpayer's property.

Oh, one more point...I personally think that if the government wants to tax churches, it can and should do so. Churches don't make much of a profit, so I don't know how much revenue that would really generate for the US Treasury, but if it gives haters one less reason to whine, then I'm for it.

Of course, that ought to go for all non-profits equally including Planned Parenthood and Greenpeace among others.

As I said, there are churches practically on every street corner in the US.  So there is no need to insist upon religious use of school buildings.
As of 2013, it was estimated that taxing churches would bring in between 71-83.5 billion dollars in revenue per year.  Some websites think that number is ridiculously low.  
Here is a site that presents both sides of the issue:  http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/

(March 29, 2016 at 3:14 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 2:42 pm)athrock Wrote: Who do the schools belong to if not the citizens who paid for them? So, yeah...equal access to the use of the facilities.

Which is a far cry from allowing Muslim or Christian groups to teach to children, of course. We're talking about weekends and evenings when the buildings are not being used. Picking up a few bucks in rent for the use of a building that is otherwise sitting idle seems like a pretty good use of the taxpayer's property.

Oh, one more point...I personally think that if the government wants to tax churches, it can and should do so. Churches don't make much of a profit, so I don't know how much revenue that would really generate for the US Treasury, but if it gives haters one less reason to whine, then I'm for it.

Of course, that ought to go for all non-profits equally including Planned Parenthood and Greenpeace among others.

As I said, there are churches practically on every street corner in the US.  So there is no need to insist upon religious use of school buildings.
As of 2013, it was estimated that taxing churches would bring in between 71-83.5 billion dollars in revenue per year.  Some websites think that number is ridiculously low.  
Here is a site that presents both sides of the issue:  http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/

#12 is pretty amusing. According to a quick Google search, the average Catholic priest earns about:

1. $33,279 a year. Those in New York City also make more than most, averaging $45,125 a year, while an Atlanta-based priest can expect a salary of $40,149 a year. The same, however, can't be said for Catholic priests in Dallas, Texas, where salaries average out at $33,279 a year.

(March 29, 2016 at 2:56 pm)athrock Wrote: 1. As a FORMER Christian, is there any one Christian that you actually admire for his or her faith and witness to the gospel? Obviously, I'm not asking if you agree with him or her...just whether you can see any good anywhere in Christianity.

2. Regardless of your current feelings about God, do you acknowledge that the Christian moral code (doing unto others, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.) has positive benefits for society as a whole...including for those who are not believers but living among those who are?

Thanks.

1) There are christians I admire or at least respect. But not for the given reasons. It's their actions earning my respect, not their faith.

2) No. Since you only cherry picked the good stuff. There are other christians on this board, who believe in a raving beast god and readily justify slavery because it's in the bible. So, no, it doesn't have benefits, since it can swing in every imaginable way. Justifying capital punishment, justifying wars, etc.

(March 29, 2016 at 4:02 pm)athrock Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 3:14 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: As I said, there are churches practically on every street corner in the US.  So there is no need to insist upon religious use of school buildings.
As of 2013, it was estimated that taxing churches would bring in between 71-83.5 billion dollars in revenue per year.  Some websites think that number is ridiculously low.  
Here is a site that presents both sides of the issue:  http://churchesandtaxes.procon.org/

#12 is pretty amusing. According to a quick Google search, the average Catholic priest earns about:

1. $33,279 a year. Those in New York City also make more than most, averaging $45,125 a year, while an Atlanta-based priest can expect a salary of $40,149 a year. The same, however, can't be said for Catholic priests in Dallas, Texas, where salaries average out at $33,279 a year.

It's not so much about the priest or preacher salaries . . . (well, there's Osteen - ) . . . unless I was misinformed, priest salaries are set by their diocese, and are not impacted by how much $$ the church itself rakes in.  No, we're talking about the church's income, the property taxes, etc.  And that $33,000 a year figure is where I JUST got to, in middle age, with 2 Masters degrees and a Doctorate.   $45,000 sounds pretty awesome, when you consider that they have job security, (unless they get caught doing something) and housing supplied.   Making $45,000 with no taxes and free housing just for telling people fairy tales and visiting the hospitals - - it almost makes up for the celibacy requirement, doesn't it?

(March 29, 2016 at 4:49 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Making $45,000 with no taxes and free housing just for telling people fairy tales and visiting the hospitals - - it almost makes up for the celibacy requirement, doesn't it?

And not to forget, especially for the USA, full healthcare coverage and pension.

(March 29, 2016 at 4:49 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 4:02 pm)athrock Wrote: #12 is pretty amusing. According to a quick Google search, the average Catholic priest earns about:

1. $33,279 a year. Those in New York City also make more than most, averaging $45,125 a year, while an Atlanta-based priest can expect a salary of $40,149 a year. The same, however, can't be said for Catholic priests in Dallas, Texas, where salaries average out at $33,279 a year.

It's not so much about the priest or preacher salaries . . . (well, there's Osteen - ) . . . unless I was misinformed, priest salaries are set by their diocese, and are not impacted by how much $$ the church itself rakes in.  No, we're talking about the church's income, the property taxes, etc.  And that $33,000 a year figure is where I JUST got to, in middle age, with 2 Masters degrees and a Doctorate.   $45,000 sounds pretty awesome, when you consider that they have job security, (unless they get caught doing something) and housing supplied.   Making $45,000 with no taxes and free housing just for telling people fairy tales and visiting the hospitals - - it almost makes up for the celibacy requirement, doesn't it?

FWIW-

Most Catholic priests have a four-year undergraduate degree and four years of seminary. 

So, the AVERAGE Catholic priest is earning that with two degrees. Additionally, the AVERAGE age of a Catholic priest in 2009 was 63, so they hit that average income much later than you did. Most will serve well into their 70's, btw.

No weekends off, on call 24/7...weddings, funerals, baptisms, confessions, counseling, parish council meetings and those pesky hospital visits to pray with the sick....yeah, sounds like a hoot. 

(March 29, 2016 at 5:47 pm)abaris Wrote:

(March 29, 2016 at 4:49 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Making $45,000 with no taxes and free housing just for telling people fairy tales and visiting the hospitals - - it almost makes up for the celibacy requirement, doesn't it?

And not to forget, especially for the USA, full healthcare coverage and pension.

So, that explains all those retired nuns living on the beach in Miami. 

Heh...no, we have to take up a second collection from time to time for the "priests' retirement fund" because most of the priests, religious and sisters in the church have very little financial support. 

From the National Catholic Register:

Without 401Ks, and sometimes even pensions and Social Security, to support them, the nation’s priests and religious brothers and sisters are living their retirement years with limited resources to pay for the basic needs many laypeople take for granted upon leaving the workforce.

Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/retired-priests-and-religious-struggle-to-cope-financially/#ixzz44KekBn2d

(March 29, 2016 at 6:05 pm)athrock Wrote: Without 401Ks, and sometimes even pensions and Social Security, to support them, the nation’s priests and religious brothers and sisters are living their retirement years with limited resources to pay for the basic needs many laypeople take for granted upon leaving the workforce.[color=#000000][size=medium][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

But as opposed to too many laypeople they aren't left to rot in the streets. The Miami pensioners aren't exactly the majority. I'm sure they don't live the highlife in their old age, but as opposed to many others, they at least have the security of being cared for till their last breath.

Am I the only one who associates the term pop morality with the older generation hating the modern music of younger generations?

If one's morality deems one remain in the dark ages, no thank you.

Therefore, fuck that dark age morality that included too many atrocities worth remembering.