(May 3, 2016 at 2:55 pm)robvalue Wrote: Wait, I thought we were pathetic?

If we're awesome now, does that disprove god?

Exactly what I thought.

I always wondered if Saudi turns off the water to peoples' homes during fasting time because Saudi is very serious on this stuff. I think in Dubai you're not allowed to be seen drinking water in public during Ramadan because "it's disrespectful to those fasting" they say. I think it's unsafe to not drink water for the entire day in those temperatures.

Since you have MS, and people who are ill aren't meant to fast, I would hope the Saudis let you off. If not, well they're even more idiotic than I thought. Very sad to learn this news of MS. And I wonder how you found this site with all the Saudi. censorship.

Before you die, the MS is a shock and I had no idea, if you ever want to visit the UK (even though we agree it's an evil country) I'm sure Rob and I will welcome you; we both live close to London. We apparently live close by to each other, like within one hour by car, so we're making plans. Rob has ME (says so on his profile), chronic fatigue syndrome that is, so we'll take it easy on the day we meet I guess.

My brain works differently to a lot of people. I look at the world differently and see different things in the scriptures. Make of that what you will. I was not able to find what I wanted in the texts of religions. I started with the assumption that one religion has to be the right one. And I saw everyone arguing and I thought they could all be wrong.

Some of these henchmen of al-Saud they say "Oh I looked into every last religion, even lots of the small ones and now I get paid lots of money to lie so it's great". Nobody has the time to thoroughly investigate every last religion. Although it's sometimes hard for me, I want to be able to enjoy life and don't want to be reading books all day long.

None of them make sense to me so I guess Quran 5:101-102 are right. Ask the prophets too many questions and you will become an unbeliever. And now I'm blind; my 'heart is sealed' (even though cutting off the circulation to the heart would kill me so those Iyaht make no sense to me since the heart only pumps blood). That's what I do, I take it literal. But, seriously, the heart pumps blood not much else.

Many on this forum have given up on you, it's clear, but I still like to take the time to reply. Sometimes I'm way off, though I try my best. Although we start from different places the conclusions are similar more often than not. I do appreciate your knowledge and it's a shame we can't agree even more. If you make it across As-Sirāt just fine, you will put in a good word for me right? I try my best, even though it's hard, so maybe Allah will forgive me for not being convinced.

(May 3, 2016 at 3:14 pm)paulpablo Wrote: It really doesn't matter much either way.

Humans are fragile, weak animals who have to defecate and procreate and eat food = God.

Humans are amazing and unique seperate from animal life due to our amazing intelligence = God.

I don't see how either implies there is  god or not a god. 

a desolate universe doesn't prove to me there's no god and a complex intelligent brain DEFINITELY doesn't prove there is a god to me.

It baffles me when religious people point to human uniqueness in comparison with other animals as a sign of god. We're the most intelligent ape and that inherant ability is magnified by a strict culture of education.  Take away that culture of education and have a baby raised by dogs you don't get a kid who's going to work for NASA, advance medical science or do any "unique" human things, they're going to walk on all fours and shit in the corner.

You have to be kidding me? 

It most certainly says to me there is no god or gods or a God, marginally more powerful or all powerful. Ever consider that maybe humans simply made them up as a projection of their own qualities, fears, desires and narcissism? 

The word for humans projecting their own qualities on non human objects or non human ideas is "anthropomorphism". Deities/god/s reflect the societies of the majority they popular in. Funny how Allah is more popular in the Middle East, while Bhrama and Vishnu are more popular in India, and Jesus is more popular in the Americas. 


Your sense of fair play does not come from scientific probability, but from your empathy and being raised under a legal system where everyone goes around saying " You are entitled to your opinion". It is well intended "splitting the baby" a laypersons term, not a scientific standard.

Billions of suns in our galaxy alone. 100s of billions galaxies in our observable universe, a universe of mostly empty space. That says nature to me, not a a cognition, just like you accept that lightening isn't caused by Thor. Just like you accept that the ocean god Poseidon does not cause hurricanes. If a tornado doesn't need a god to cause it, why would anything in the universe, or the universe itself need a cognitive cause? 

Humans have that delusion that because we create and build, then something must have built us. No, instead we should KNOW that were are merely a temporary blip in an unthinking natural and non human giant weather pattern.

Stephen Hawking, "A God is not required". 

If you want to play the game "how do you know if you haven't been everywhere in the universe or haven't lived your entire future yet"

Ok, "technically" since I don't know the future, I "might" one day fart a full sized Lamborghini out of my butt. But is that really a high probability we need to consider at all with the know about the size of standard cars and the human body?

"We don't know" is a cop out. Science still strives to discover new things sure. But there is also lots that we already know and lots of bad claims that have been scrapped in the past because they never worked in the first place. The god of the gaps answer does not work.

AtlasS33 Wrote:why I believe

(May 3, 2016 at 3:14 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Delusions atop of delusions, nothing more

Ah...now I get it.

It sounds to me that you're a slave to your religion, and the worrying thing is you don't seem to mind. It seems like a problem with low self esteem. Or maybe you have to convince yourself that all the horrible things that happen in the world (and to you) have some sort of purpose, that it's not just pointless suffering.

I'm no one's slave. Sure, someone could come along and physically force me to be their slave, but I'd resist every inch of the way. I'd be planning my escape from the get-go. I'd do only what I had to in order to maximise the chance of freedom. If there was no realistic chance, I'd just refuse to do anything until they killed me or whatever.

But right now, unless I'm hopelessly deluded, I'm not a slave. If I really am a slave but Allah or whatever else is making it feel like I'm not, then that's a weird game he's playing, and for all intents and purposes I'm as free as I can be.

I'm constrained by the way reality works, of course. In that way I'm a slave, in that I cannot leave (except the hard way) and I can't simply ignore rules. But I'm not doing things because someone tells me to. I'm assessing my options, whatever they may be, and making what I think is the best choice. If some lofty judgmental prick up on a throne somewhere disagrees with me, too bad. He can come make his case to me, or he can fuck off. If he wants to punish me later for not acting like a mindless drone, then he's too sick to be reasoned with anyway.

I feel very sad that you consider yourself a slave. You deserve better, and it's especially frustrating because I'm fully aware how imaginary the bonds are all around you. If I have the same bonds as you, they don't hold me. So they can't be as strong as you think.

It's truly amazing how powerful the art of indoctrination is.
It brainwashes children to become superstitious and they remain in that state their whole life.
Only their body ages.

(May 3, 2016 at 10:30 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 3, 2016 at 3:14 pm)paulpablo Wrote: It really doesn't matter much either way.

Humans are fragile, weak animals who have to defecate and procreate and eat food = God.

Humans are amazing and unique seperate from animal life due to our amazing intelligence = God.

I don't see how either implies there is  god or not a god. 

a desolate universe doesn't prove to me there's no god and a complex intelligent brain DEFINITELY doesn't prove there is a god to me.

It baffles me when religious people point to human uniqueness in comparison with other animals as a sign of god. We're the most intelligent ape and that inherant ability is magnified by a strict culture of education.  Take away that culture of education and have a baby raised by dogs you don't get a kid who's going to work for NASA, advance medical science or do any "unique" human things, they're going to walk on all fours and shit in the corner.

You have to be kidding me? 

It most certainly says to me there is no god or gods or a God, marginally more powerful or all powerful. Ever consider that maybe humans simply made them up as a projection of their own qualities, fears, desires and narcissism? 

The word for humans projecting their own qualities on non human objects or non human ideas is "anthropomorphism". Deities/god/s reflect the societies of the majority they popular in. Funny how Allah is more popular in the Middle East, while Bhrama and Vishnu are more popular in India, and Jesus is more popular in the Americas. 


Your sense of fair play does not come from scientific probability, but from your empathy and being raised under a legal system where everyone goes around saying " You are entitled to your opinion". It is well intended "splitting the baby" a laypersons term, not a scientific standard.

Billions of suns in our galaxy alone. 100s of billions galaxies in our observable universe, a universe of mostly empty space. That says nature to me, not a a cognition, just like you accept that lightening isn't caused by Thor. Just like you accept that the ocean god Poseidon does not cause hurricanes. If a tornado doesn't need a god to cause it, why would anything in the universe, or the universe itself need a cognitive cause? 

Humans have that delusion that because we create and build, then something must have built us. No, instead we should KNOW that were are merely a temporary blip in an unthinking natural and non human giant weather pattern.

Stephen Hawking, "A God is not required". 

If you want to play the game "how do you know if you haven't been everywhere in the universe or haven't lived your entire future yet"

Ok, "technically" since I don't know the future, I "might" one day fart a full sized Lamborghini out of my butt. But is that really a high probability we need to consider at all with the know about the size of standard cars and the human body?

"We don't know" is a cop out. Science still strives to discover new things sure. But there is also lots that we already know and lots of bad claims that have been scrapped in the past because they never worked in the first place. The god of the gaps answer does not work.

I'm not sure if you read his entire post or if you quoted him by mistake.

Slaves to religion are annoying.

(May 3, 2016 at 3:14 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Losty and Rob:

Pathetic indeed, but a golden shell surrounds us; so shiny that it catches and keeps the ego burning and burning..
Let's say, an infinite factory of illusion?

Delusions atop of delusions, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, it's a design that seems so well constructed to make "deceiving" very easy.
Isn't life a test? how would the test be complete, with a golden cover?

No. We are pathetic, but at the same time: awesome, at a very very small scale/contex.

We are the slaves, made to worship. Our worship to God is life, no shame in that. We worth nothing without God. That's how it's defined

You are pathetic. All the more pathetic in that you imagine you could speak for us.

Atlas is a nice guy. I blame indoctrination for the part that drives him to preach about his religion.

Hammy