(May 12, 2016 at 9:23 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 10:06 am)vorlon13 Wrote: Hard to pick one, and the 'one' can change as new outrages occur, but for today the incredible rate of schisms occurring is to me, an insuperable problem for the theists.  And if you think about it, that problem is entirely of the theists making, no atheists had to 'do' or say anything to 'induce or contrive' that problem for the theists, they did it entirely on their own to themselves.

Even a small, recent  off shoot of Christianity, Mormonism, has schism-ed itself well over 100 times in less than 2 centuries, and some of the offshoots are PROFOUNDLY different from the original LDS (which itself in it's current form is grotesquely and copiously changed from it's original invocation) such as the Baneemyites.

How can an 'Eternal and Unchanging God' as virtually all of them assert exists be so maddeningly vague, confused and confusing, so as to inspire over 78,000 (and counting) variants in just the Christian portion of human religiosity??


Any theists here want to weigh in on this and try and convince me not only is schismatism A-one okey dokey and a salient feature of their God, and/or, despite all the schisms there is still an absolutely reliable means of determining amidst all the dross, chaff and spuriously plentiful mutations of Christendom, the One True Faith ???

This is an easy one..

What if God's ultimate rule was to simply do the best you can to love/worship Him and each other as you would want to be loved/treated?

Now lets apply that to the whole of humanity. Most of which are different. Meaning different strengths and weaknesses. Lets say you are a song writter and to love God with all of your you need to write and sing songs. And I'm really gifted at bible research. Now imagine a church dedicated to only my pursuit, where the services and the worship are directed towards those who like to worship via bible study as I do...

Now, that's just fine and dandy if in fact worshiping God with all that you can muster centers around bible study, but If you have a gift like song writing, then you are not following His greatest Command. Therefore, there needs to be a separation so that you can full fill God's greatest command by using all of your gifts and talents, and I can do the same.

Where Christianity is different than all other religions is it hangs on just two Primary rules. And because of this, the execution of said rules was and always has been intended to be different. Even in the bible the letters to the different churches has Paul giving and addressing different rules to different regions/cities. Because they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

This is where people like you mess up with their understanding of the church. Paul likes the church as a body made up of different parts. Just because we don't look the same or have the same function in the body does not mean we are excluded from being a member of the body. This works on an individual level as well as on a larger systematic scale. Meaning a denominational/schism scale.

What God's ultimate rule would be is subject to debate.

Not blaspheming against the Holy Spirit would be a strong contender.

And blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is PRECISELY what happens when one is going to the wrong church.

You  imply belief in Jesus 'indemnifies' a believer, in spite of attendance/membership/fealty to a heretical Christian schismatic church.

That view is heretical in and of itself.


Heretics don't go to heaven, they burn, and they burn forever.

(May 12, 2016 at 8:27 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 9:05 am)Emjay Wrote: What are your most convincing reasons for not believing in god? I don't mean convincing to other people (necessarily) but convincing to yourself... what reasons stop you going back (if you are an ex-theist) even if you wanted to?

I'm an ex-Christian so I have baggage and I admit that very occasionally I am tempted back but one of the reasons that prevents me is simply the fact of contradictions in the Bible: if there are contradictions it can't be infallible, and if it's not infallible but only 'inspired' then how can you trust any of it (or know what to trust)? Ultimately it is that reason that stops me in my tracks if I'm ever tempted to read the Bible again... I literally cannot get past the first few pages of Genesis without thinking 'this is silly' even if I actually want to go back to Christianity.

I'd love to hear what other core reasons people have for not believing... reasons that act like mental blocks to ever returning. Ashamedly I do have doubts from time to time and so am not 100% certain like Rob, but I'd like to be, and I think having a few more core reasons (rather than superficial/semantic reasons) would help 

...And if nothing/no one in the bible never claimed to be infallible? The closest thing we have is "All Scripture is ·inspired by God [breathed out by God; L God-breathed] and is useful for teaching, for ·showing people what is wrong in their lives [refuting error; rebuking], for correcting faults, and for ·teaching how to live right [training in righteousness]." from 1 Tim 3:16

The idea of biblical infallibility was to counter the authority of Papal Infallibility in the reformation movement. Meaning it is a foolish doctrine of man, and not a decree from God.

I say that because Paul seems to understand that the bible does not have to be perfect as 'prefection' is not required from us. We have been given the bible not as a item to worship or revere as holy, but as a tool so that we may seek the Holy Spirit/God which is perfect, and to use as a standard to 'proof' that what we sought and found was indeed the Holy Spirit.

People who 'need' the bible to be infallible do not understand what Basic Christianity is. Nor how it was intended to be established or maintained.

Well at least one Christian admits it's fallible. But a fallible Bible could never be enough for me... if I'd known that when I was growing up I might not have been a Christian at all, who knows. If I'm gonna believe in a supernatural deity I need to be damn sure I know when I'm talking to him and hearing from him but with a fallible Bible that's impossible. All it can be in that case is what I think/feel to be inspired in it... but that's how you've got a million different flavours of Christianity... each one thinking it knows the inspired part. Can you at least acknowledge that problem? Maybe we can agree to disagree on the value of A/S/K but being very interested in psychology and neuroscience I personally can't ignore that it is perfect example of confirmation bias. So it may be enough to convince you but it could never be enough to convince me... no judgement there, just personally it could never convince me because of what I know about psychology... and psychology is my life. I've seen it in action too many times to ever trust it... particularly playing mafia... how you can believe to the core of your being that you're right when you're completely wrong. Maybe you should have a game some time, see for yourself what I'm talking about? You'd be perfectly welcome down there - it's one place on the forum where religion doesn't come into it in the slightest... plenty of theists play and we all get on like a house on fire.

(May 12, 2016 at 10:09 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(May 12, 2016 at 10:03 am)Drich Wrote: What would be a convincing reason?

Do your own work, evangelist...or perhaps you should simply ask god?  He'd know, and you speak to him, right?

As to the above, then you should understand the position that we find ourselves in.  I find christianity to be as empty as you find buddhism and islam.  Had I seen or experienced or witnessed something - perhaps I would be in a different position.  Seeing as you -should- understand this position....it's strange to see you explain it away as laziness or excuse.  Is it your laziness and your excuses that keep you from being a buddhist or a muslim?  You gave -precisely- the response above that you criticized from another.

To me being privy/Having access to God is enough of a convincing reason. Which again is offered to all of us. However there is only one caveat. We have to first humble ourselves and meet him on His terms. That's it. I did this and almost immediately Got what I was asking/seek and knocking for.

Proverbs 30:5

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.


I'm having great trouble with the assertion the bible can be the word of God and imperfect. Smells of heresy to me.

(May 12, 2016 at 10:23 am)Crossless1 Wrote:

(May 12, 2016 at 10:19 am)Drich Wrote: That "nonsense" simply eliminates the constraints of a 6000 year time line you 'good people' artificially put on creation, and places it where the bible describes. (The Fall/eviction from the Garden) Which means you can fill the narrative any way you like. I simply point out Genesis 2 is a garden account, and Adam and everything in the garden was created on day 3 Apart from everything else outside the garden. I also point out that A&E per the Genesis account are immortal, which mean that the end of Genesis 2 and the start of Genesis 3 could have consumed all the "time" you 'good people' need to make your origins account work in your minds.

New flash: I don't spend any time making your holy book's origins account 'work'. It's not my problem.

New Flash: I wasn't really speaking to you. I was answering someone else when you jumped into the conversation. If you have no interest in the subject or exploring it then why say anything at all?

(May 12, 2016 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 12, 2016 at 10:23 am)Crossless1 Wrote: New flash: I don't spend any time making your holy book's origins account 'work'. It's not my problem.

New Flash: I wasn't really speaking to you. I was answering someone else when you jumped into the conversation. If you have no interest in the subject or exploring it then why say anything at all?

Because you complete me, Drich. You had me at "monkey man". 

(May 12, 2016 at 10:26 am)vorlon13 Wrote:

(May 12, 2016 at 9:23 am)Drich Wrote: This is an easy one..

What if God's ultimate rule was to simply do the best you can to love/worship Him and each other as you would want to be loved/treated?

Now lets apply that to the whole of humanity. Most of which are different. Meaning different strengths and weaknesses. Lets say you are a song writter and to love God with all of your you need to write and sing songs. And I'm really gifted at bible research. Now imagine a church dedicated to only my pursuit, where the services and the worship are directed towards those who like to worship via bible study as I do...

Now, that's just fine and dandy if in fact worshiping God with all that you can muster centers around bible study, but If you have a gift like song writing, then you are not following His greatest Command. Therefore, there needs to be a separation so that you can full fill God's greatest command by using all of your gifts and talents, and I can do the same.

Where Christianity is different than all other religions is it hangs on just two Primary rules. And because of this, the execution of said rules was and always has been intended to be different. Even in the bible the letters to the different churches has Paul giving and addressing different rules to different regions/cities. Because they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

This is where people like you mess up with their understanding of the church. Paul likes the church as a body made up of different parts. Just because we don't look the same or have the same function in the body does not mean we are excluded from being a member of the body. This works on an individual level as well as on a larger systematic scale. Meaning a denominational/schism scale.

What God's ultimate rule would be is subject to debate.

Not blaspheming against the Holy Spirit would be a strong contender.

And blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is PRECISELY what happens when one is going to the wrong church.

You  imply belief in Jesus 'indemnifies' a believer, in spite of attendance/membership/fealty to a heretical Christian schismatic church.

That view is heretical in and of itself.


Heretics don't go to heaven, they burn, and they burn forever.

Ahhh, No.. It's not up for Debate.
Jesus Himself Identifies God's 2 Greatest Commands:
Mat 22:34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”

37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”

If you Love God with all your being then you would not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Two, the Holy Spirit is not the church. WE Are the church. If you are going to a Jesus Christ centered Church and believe this church will help you full fill those two commands then it doesn't matter who's name is on the building.

(May 12, 2016 at 9:54 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 6:39 pm)Aroura Wrote: I had lots of little things that bothered me as a tween, teen and young adult. The bible having horrible lessons as well as contradictions was one, but even that and all the stupid answers from clergy and other adults did not kill my belief,  just moved it towards deism.

I think the thing that got me, and still gets me most, is realizing Zeus and Posidon and Odin and Ra were all manmade...therefore so are all of them. A modern day priest sprinkling holy water on a person and speaking a benediction is not in any way different from an ancient priest doing whatever their magic rites called for.

Then along came Q, and I realized this hypothetical alien fit most definitions of a god. So even if it turns out there is a conciousness that created us, it would just be another form of life. Advanced technology seems like magic and all that. Nothing "supernatural" exists, nor can it. It's a nonsense word. If there is magic, or dragons, or gods, or telekinesis, it would turn out in all cases that they have a natural causes and/or explanations, just like it has with everything else.

I believe the "q" thing as well. Why?

Because if and when God does reveal Himself and can be "proven" it will be done so in the manor in which the "federation" Identifies and classifies all "q". We will see them/Him as alien/Trans-dimensional being. With power or the technology to "create."

The idea that God has to be a zeus like character sitting in the clouds is beyond stupid. People often times 'canonize' aspects of God never mentioned in the bible. they steal from other religions and graft them onto Christianity and when those 'grafts' fail they believe the cannon of Christianity has failed. Again a lazy reason not to believe, because you have not even established or understand who/what God claims to even be. In short you or your religion of choice create a strawman and then you defeat the strawman.

God doesn't change but that does not mean our understanding of Him can't.

And yet I believe in the Q thing, and still wouldn't call that a "god".  That's an advanced alien.

A deist "god" one that creates but does not give a shit about us as individuals or even as a race, is indistinguishable form one who does not exist. 

As to the strawman complaint, how can we establish or understand something that has never shown us it exists?  It seems to me you are the one inventing a form of god, one in which you CAN believe.  I'm looking at all claimed forms of god (including this one), and saying none of them make sense.

(May 12, 2016 at 10:32 am)Drich Wrote: To me being privy/Having access to God is enough of a convincing reason.

For -you-....fine, but others don't have that access, so it's not exactly convincing to them.  That;s not difficult to understand, surely?

Quote:Which again is offered to all of us.

Promises made vs promises kept.  Many of us do not have this access. It doesn't matter why, it doesn't matter how many caveats you add or what they are. We-don't-have-access. It;s difficult to understand how someone would be convinced by something they do not possess, and cannot procure, isn't it?

Quote:However there is only one caveat. We have to first humble ourselves and meet him on His terms. That's it. I did this and almost immediately Got what I was asking/seek and knocking for.

Others didn't find what you find, others don't have the access you have.  What convinces you is obviously non-transferable, judging by your -many- attempts to communicate it on these boards. All that's available to me are the stories...and the stories didn't even convince -you- that took a personal experience.

(May 12, 2016 at 9:56 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 7:12 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: The contradictions.

The fact that they need apologetics to explain their deity's "actions".

The fact that many of the claims have been proved wrong and there's no supporting evidence.

The fact that there are thousands of different denominations of the same religion.

People say contradictions all the time, but in 20 years of doing this I have yet to see one. What gets contradicted is their personal idea of God, not a biblical accounting of Him.

Drich =