(May 13, 2016 at 12:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(May 13, 2016 at 10:11 am)Drich Wrote: What you habitually fail to understand is I can offer you nothing outside of the starting line to your journey of 'proofing'

You haven't given me any reason to believe that you can offer this.  

Quote:Do you want to stand before God and spit in his eye? I did, and I was so foolish as to 'challenge' God to give me that chance.

No.

Quote:Do you think 'Hell' Meh, how can a 'spirit burn' if I left all my nerve endings in my casket? I did.

No.

Quote:Ever wonder what an angel is like? Ever wonder how someone could be mystified by one?

....no

Quote:Ever was to know God personally? Ever want to ask Him Questions? Ever wanted Real answers? Ever want anything that you heard about in the bible that God offered to someone else?

No.

Quote:I did... And I don't want for anything, anymore. because I got everything I've ever asked for and more. I honestly stopped asking for that kind of stuff.

Still pretending you aren't trying to sell something, lol?

Quote:All of that said I do not have the ability to share or give you all any of it. All I can do it point you in the same direction offer to walk beside you down the same path I did.

-and in case you missed it...what I;m suggesting..is that you are -completely- inept when it comes to pointing people in the right direction....so if I'm not headed in the right direction...it might have something to do with the direction you're pointing in......

Quote:For me I hate sales men. I want to know facts, and I dont want to wade promises a sales man makes that he can not keep. If there are promises being made I want to get them from the source.

Precisely the problem.  You just  pulled an infomercial product testimonial on me up there....but I still haven't heard from or seen any gods......

Quote:That is why I am providing facts, and offering to point you to the source.

 The day you manage to turn your beliefs into facts is the day I remind you that I'm still not going to be a christian.  

The place you're pointing to doesn't seem to have any gods in it.  That's the entire problem Drich.  Maybe you should check again...maybe you're just mis-remembering where you left them or found them?

No???
They why answer the questions?

When I truly have no interest in a survey or a questionnaire I don't take the time to answer them. Yet you did. Why then say no? Do you want proof of God? If no then why discuss anything theological at all ever?

You put a lot of time in dispelling theist arguments. That is not the actions of a disinterested third party. those are the actions of someone desperately looking to be 'proved' wrong.

Sorry sport me thinks thou doeth protest too much.

(May 13, 2016 at 12:29 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't think people like Drich can grasp that it's possible to simply not be interested in joining Christianity, regardless of its truth. Or indeed, to find it morally repulsive.

No I get it... why else do you think I don't take the time to argue with you?

In other news, you guys must believe god cums. If god didn't came, how in the hell Mary got pregnant with Jesus anyway.... hehe

Ill grab my coat.

(May 16, 2016 at 9:09 am)Drich Wrote: No???
They why answer the questions?

To help you form a set of coherent statements regarding your beliefs...on a board that caters to discussion of peoples beliefs?  

Quote:When I truly have no interest in a survey or a questionnaire I don't take the time to answer them. Yet you did. Why then say no? Do you want proof of God? If no then why discuss anything theological at all ever?

See above.  

Quote:You put a lot of time in dispelling theist arguments. That is not the actions of a disinterested third party. those are the actions of someone desperately looking to be 'proved' wrong.

Sorry sport me thinks thou doeth protest too much.

B-mine.

I'm interested in competently formed arguments. More than that, I'm interested in the various ways that human beings (like yourself..ostensibly......) have come up with to conceptualize the world around them and their place in it. IOW, shit that's -vastly- more important and relevant than any fairy you might believe in, on it's own. I've been disappointed repeatedly, in both regards, in your threads. If you're only now realizing what I have told you countless times about myself....I can;t help but think that this is related to your failures in those other areas.

One might imagine that an evangelist would welcome any and all help with arriving at a coherent statement of beliefs, a compelling argument for their gods. I suppose though, that one would have to assume that said evangelist was a rational actor making intelligent decisions....but perhaps those two things can't coexist with god-belief or evangelism. Or maybe they just don't exist in you, in which case I'll still be waiting here, for that person...just like I was before you arrived.

(May 16, 2016 at 9:11 am)Drich Wrote: No I get it... why else do you think I don't take the time to argue with you?

To be fair, you never argued with anybody. Your post history is a monologue of you reassuring yourself. Many of us gave rebuttals, yes, only to receive more of the same monologue. It's all good, but forgive me for not paying much attention.

I mean, if anything the mighty god you believe in should help you with your own lack of faith.

(May 16, 2016 at 9:03 am)Drich Wrote: Ah, I wrongly assumed all people who claim they want proof of God, do and are willing to search for it.

You don't mind God comming to you, you are not willing to go to God.

Does that sum things up?

How do you search for something that doesn't exist?
How do you search for an idea?
How do you search for dragons? and faeries? and wizards?

How do you search for a god? Assume such a thing exists and then voilá, you're convinced it does. perfect reasoning, huh?
I'm sure psychology is beyond your pay grade, but I'd invest in learning some about it.

(May 13, 2016 at 2:27 pm)Emjay Wrote: It wasn't a very good explanation, no, because to do it justice I would have to give a detailed description of neural network dynamics which a) is very dry subject matter and bores the shit out of everyone and b) I don't think would convince you anyway because you don't seem to have any interest or awareness of psychology and its effects whatsoever.

You didn't have to explain anything, any further than you already did. I was asking for 'proof' or a citation to support your dismissal.

Quote: It is not the opposite of bias, it is exactly bias. Did you ever consider the possibility that the answer was that there was no God?

Yes, At that time I did not believe in God.

Quote: So in other words your bias is that God exists...

so sorry, but no. I like most of you hated God at that point in my life, and my swan song to completely separate myself from any ties to him was to 'challenge' Him if such a being ever indeed existed. I did not have an atheist fourm to 'practice' or learn how to "disbelieve/hate" God as it is fashionable to do so now. I had to 'break up' or sever any ties (which is not unlike what goes on in threads like this one) except of standing with like minded douche bags and patting each other on the back I took my disbelief to the source.

Quote: you started out Catholic and ended up whatever the hell you are now, but still a Christian.

Nuuupe.
Started out Buddhist. Learn about God through movies and TV, in the 70's and 80's those portrayals (God, satan, Heaven and Hell) were catholic based. My mom later converted to Korean Baptist and drug me to church but it was korean speaking only. So many of the "finer points/baptist distinctive" were lost on me. Life sucked, prayed to a God based on korean spoken sunday school and movies... Crap got worse, 'broke up' with God.

Quote:A lifetime of searching for the right definition of God, while assuming that he must exist, is definitely bias.

Ah, no. Again you have failed to account for direction sport. Bias is only bias if you find what you set out looking for and change the narritive surrounding your discovery to fit what you already believe. What I found was nothing like what I set out looking for. Yes it was God but in Name only. Everything else I thought I knew was absolutely wrong.

That is like if I were to set out looking for the titanic, (the steam ship that sunk in the north Atlantic in 1912) and found a space ship buried in a mountain glacier with the same same.

Bias would have me dismiss the clues i found that would have lead me away from the North atlantic.

Quote:But as I said I was not expecting to convince you. I know I can't.

That's because your example of 'bias does not fit the actual definition. you have changed the meaning of the word to to include anything you yourself do not currently hold true.

If you want to change my opinion then simply properly define the word (use a citation) then draw paralells between that definition and my usage.

Easy peasy.

Quote:You're living this and you've got powerful emotional experiences underlying it. I'm just saying that this is how you appear to me personally, based on what I know of psychology and neuroscience, and why I personally can't take it seriously, either in you or as a means for me to 'find god'.

What you know of anything (if you knew anything) is irrelevant. It's about what can be proven. (how's that for irony) Cite what you know then leave a link.
That's how things work here.

Quote:Of course it's come true! Ugh. That's what I've been trying to say... your life is like one big horoscope. That's what bias does... it makes things come true - but only in your perception.

So if a man 10 years ahead says "a stranger will give you a "large sum of money" to start your own business.. " and 10 years later this very thing happens (25K from I guy I knew of through someone I worked for)

That's bias?

How about him telling me "the girl your in love with.. You will have one chance with her, and you will pass it up, and what's more you will know this is your only chance and you will pass it up anyway." A year later this very thing happened. She broke up with her BF and approached me, but I was exhausted from work, and she wanted to go out on a Sunday night. I told her I was tired, but I was going to go. She said we can just go out friday. Then I told her about this very 'angel experience' and what he said, and was worried this was my 'one chance.' She said don't worry about it go and get some rest. Come Friday she had gotten back together with that guy (she married)
He also told me I would have a second chance latter but that it would not count as i would be dating my future wife at that point.
A year after that she came to me after my first date with me wife and told me she was done with him again, and this time I got to tell her no.

More bias?

What about the things he told me that I'd had prayed for?
The man listed out at least 1/2 dozen major prayers I had only prayed to God and never mentioned to anyone. He told me which was going to happen and in what order.

All of this and a whole lot more and all i did was ask him where he wanted me to take him...

But yeah.. all bias because you are biased on the idea that the world can only work the way you think it does.

Quote:The effect in the brain of bias is pattern completion.

And you yourself seem to be bent on demonstrating this.

Quote:If a horoscope says you'll meet a tall, dark, stranger then chances are you will, and it's almost guaranteed if there are no failure standards such as time constraints, but only in your perception.

But again... what I thought God was... Had nothing to do with what I found.

Quote:You will start noticing things you wouldn't have noticed before, anything that vaguely confirms the hypothesis/prediction, and you will require less evidence from the outside world to confirm it; you might for instance accept only two of the features eg tall and dark, tall and stranger, or dark and stranger... or even just one - tall, dark, or stranger... or you might relax your standards on what counts as one of the features or your interpretation of what the feature means... how many different ways are there of applying the word 'dark' to a person... hair colour, skin colour, sense of humour even?

Oh, I get it now.. So your saying when a stranger/angel told me "someone you never met will give you a large sum of money to start your own buisness" because he was not specific I just assumed that the first stranger out of the frigging blue who wrote me a check for $25,000.00 (For the Express Purpose of Starting My Own business) must have been my 'biased' view because 25K really isn't that much money, but I made it out to be even though it was chump change for the guy who wrote the check.

Quote:You've got this whole list of prophecies about your life but they couldn't be any more vague.

Quote:Where bias is concerned, vague is your friend and specificity is your enemy. Vague allows you to answer the question in a million different ways and feel right no matter what. I hate to break it to you, but if you've been a success in business it's entirely down to you... no god involved. You and you alone have made yourself a success. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy... it has come from the power of your belief, but not in the way you think... not through god, just the power of bias.

Again, prophesy was only 1/2 of what was communicated.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html

Quote:The process of bias is extremely powerful emotionally... it feels like absolute certainty... because as far as the brain's concerned, it is. All the brain is concerned with is completing the pattern, whatever it takes, whenever heavy bias is involved. You just cannot trust that feeling of certainty as a measure of the truth... it's not... it's a measure of how complete the pattern is. If you take anything from this I'd hope it would be that. I know this perfectly well from playing mafia, which is a great place to observe psychology in action in a highly emotional and contained environment, almost like an experiment. When I first started playing I succumbed to a lot of these delusions, because I'm an emotional player, but you can't be a good player playing like that. The key is to become mindfully aware of your own behaviour, and what's driving it, and detach because bias comes when you're emotionally rather than intellectually invested in something. It's easier said than done if you're an emotional player, and I still succumb from time to time, but my play and my accuracy improves when I'm detached. And not just in mafia. I'm an emotional person so I can get caught up in the moment, and in bias, but I try to understand it and be mindful of it whenever I can... to snap out of it. The fact that you don't seem to have any similar inclination to understand your own behaviour and psychology is what scares me.

Sounds like you speak from experience.

Quote:Then speak.
So long as the 'church' does not endorse sin where the bible identifies it, then their is no issue, as having homosexuality as you sin of choice as homosexuality is no different than any other sexual sin. (Which are rampant in all churches, but again not endorsed.)

The same standard that applies to one church concerning sexual sin should apply to all sexual sin. do you not agree?

Quote:That was a joke. I know Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible. I have a few gay friends who consider themselves Christians, but personally when I was a Christian, all I got was cognitive dissonance when I tried to marry the two. To me they can't be reconciled.

You're new here. Look up some of my old posts. From Day one i have always held the same view.

Quote:There can be confirmation bias in science at the level of individuals or groups with agendas but scientific enquiry aims (or should aim) to be objective. But findings are only considered credible and objective if they can withstand outside scrutiny by the whole scientific community, including being called out for any possible bias.

Is this how you pretend to live your life, or does this only apply to people who do not think as you do?

Quote:See above. Your bias is that god exists... whatever flavour you've ended up believing in is neither here nor there because it's just one of the millions of ways you could confirm the (vague) hypothesis 'god exists'.

See above, Your Bias is that god does not exist... whatever flavour you've ended up disbelieving in is neither here nor there because it's just one of the millions of ways you could deny the (any) hypothesis that says 'god exists'.

(I can go as long as you can)

Quote:The problem your understanding of the bias is that I hypothesized that xy and z was a 'scum team' and I found the opposite to be true therefore I change my view point.

Quote:Again, as I said, it's within a bigger context. The 'opposite' would be 'god does not exist'... you did not find the opposite to be true, you just found another way to confirm your hypothesis.

Again I started from the position God did not exist. My 'break up' was me 'proofing' my hypothesis.

Quote:The meeting half way requires an emotional investment in God before I have any reason to make such an investment... before I have any reason to believe he exists. If I did that, I'd be just like you... creating my own self-fulfilling prophecy that fulfils itself not through god but through the workings of the brain.

No 1/2 way is not investing in anything.

It is just the demand that we humble ourselves and look and continue to do so till we find truth. That is why my current view of God does not comply with the biased view I started out with.

It doesn't matter how much you ramble on about it.  People have tried your method...and it didn't work.   Do you expect anyone to take the god-advice of a charlatan seriously?

(May 13, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Thena323 Wrote:

(May 13, 2016 at 11:29 am)Drich Wrote:

---

Exactly!

God hides from those who see themselves as 'wise' in the Mundane. Look at who he choose to lead the jews out of egypt, look at How Jesus came into the world, Look at Jesus' ministry. The 'mundane' is a tool or a pattern God repeated uses through out the bible to set himself apart from the pictures and ideas that people think 'God' is supposed to be and act like.

Can you imagine how up setting it was to the holiest of holy Jews to expect or almost demand that the messiah be born as past kings were born and follow and honor their traditional views, but instead their messiah came in the way of  they would dismiss as a common man save for the fact that He could do thing they could not explain.

So now fast forward 2000 years and lets say we can explain some of Jesus was able to do. does that change anything?  does it change the fact that on demand he can use the natural process that have been put into place since the beginning to effect his will or the will of the Father?

That is how God Hides Himself from the 'wise' and reveals Himself to the Humble. The Humble are willing to forgo their understanding of God and take Him as He is. while the 'wise' of this world expect God to be certain things.

You for example demand God be supernatural and always mystical. What if God doesn't want to be unknowable? Who then should win out? Your picture of a always unknowable supernatural being? Or what the Alpha and Omega wants for himself?

So then if He presents as something you do not expect then is He not hidden to you? Just like He said He would do?

---

I don't feel I was "demanding that God be supernatural and always mystical" in the past, as I never asked for anything other some slight indication or sign from God that could not be mistaken for anything else; As you and others claim to have been privileged to receive. I was able to continue believing to for many years, despite not being provided with such. At some point, it just became increasingly difficult to maintain belief in something unseen and so extraordinary, without receiving the slightest indication that anything extraordinary is even possible. Ever. 

Weren't you going on a few pages back about how you don't 'get' people with an endless supply of faith?

Neither do I.

Your right. but a few pages back I also told you I had to drop or completely let go my idea of God. The winds and rain had to take away the 'house' my belief built. (God had to knock down or make me release my understanding/view of Him) This was my atheism this was the time I lost all hope in my version of God, but yet was still open to the truth even if it meant I had to accept God.

You all assume because your first 'born into version' of Christianity did not yield a prophet level interaction with God, that their can't be a God. You people are quick to point out that their are over 30,000 different version of Christianity all the time. So the question then becomes what makes you think you were born into the one or two that has the strongest connection with God?

You prayed for 'proof'. Now assume your version of God was way, way off. (think of all the horrible things I've said God supports to one degree or another, and ask yourself does your version of God support these things) Now if there is a vast difference between your version and mine, ask yourself now IF Drich was right would His version of God support my version of God be confirming one of my petitions or prayers?

The answer is no. The God of the bible is a 'Jealous God.' And essence you are worshiping a completely different 'deity,' that happens to share the same title or name.

Now does this mean people of your original denomination go to Hell? No of course not, because if their is atonement when we willfully sin their is greater atonement when we mess up doing our best to love God. However this does not mean God is going to open the flood gates of Heaven's blessings either. If he did by the time you got to heaven you'd be so ingrained in your corrupt beliefs you would not know who God is.

So God sends the winds and rains to wash away your beliefs Because YOU prayed for Him to do so. Now all you need to is approach him, and be ready to build a picture of God on who the bible says he is rather than the version you have confirmed that does not exist. If you do this He will help you build a faith based on 'Proof.'

(May 16, 2016 at 9:09 am)Drich Wrote: You put a lot of time in dispelling theist arguments. That is not the actions of a disinterested third party. those are the actions of someone desperately looking to be 'proved' wrong.

Sorry sport me thinks thou doeth protest too much.

This is an atheist forum. We do not accept the reality of a god and do not discuss it amongst ourselves. However, when the theists show up on this atheist forum (note atheist forum) We are then put in a position of ignoring the theists or engaging in discussion.