@All:

Right. If someone told you to keep doing X until you saw Allah, and if you don't see him you're doing it wrong, is that evidence? Or is it utter bollocks?

Or if someone produces a book of anecdotes and tells you it's all true because some part of it vaguely resembles something true, would you join that religion? Would you join if they told you about their "personal experiences" with Allah?

Of course you wouldn't. So you use different standards than those you expect people to use for your own.

(May 23, 2016 at 8:53 am)Stimbo Wrote: It's not down to any person to decide what counts as valid evidence, it's conditional and proportionate to the claim being made. Does your evidence actually evidence your claim? Would it convince you if another person offered it to you blindly, at face value? Would you require additional information to make a critical assessment? Or would you merely swallow it wholecloth?

That's the thing though.. My evidence (experiences) do indeed support what is claimed by scripture. (and then some.) Yet, it is discounted or rather most of your personally decide to discount the evidence provided. Some call me a liar, other tell me I am suffering from confirmation bias, Others say I'm crazy.

Now again, you ask would my 'experiences' act or is supposed to act as evidence for anyone else? a 1000 times no. My experiences were for me and me alone. They were only meant to for me to use to establish and maintian my system of belief. But, again here's the thing. God offers this same process to everyone who needs it.

I have pointed to the account of doubting Thomas many times in this thread to support the idea that God offers individual attention to those who require it if they just A/S/K for it. Thomas did not get to witness Jesus as the other 10 did, as a result he said he would not believe till he touched the wounds of Christ so He could know for Himself. So what does God do? Does He tell Thomas his faith is not strong enough? No the only thing Required of Thomas was to be in that upper room. And Jesus let Thomas experience what He needed to establish and maintain a system of belief that lead to a horrible death on His behalf, as Thomas knew Christ was really God, and all that He said was true.

This is what the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is (what we are supposed to be A/S/K-ing for) It is direct contact with God. My proof of God is meaningless outside as an example of what God offers to do for each and every single one of you who will simply "meet Him in the upper room" by Ask, Seek Knocking for the Holy Spirit.

What better 'proof' of God is there than you being placed before God?

(May 23, 2016 at 10:34 am)robvalue Wrote: @All:

Right. If someone told you to keep doing X until you saw Allah, and if you don't see him you're doing it wrong, is that evidence? Or is it utter bollocks?

Or if someone produces a book of anecdotes and tells you it's all true because some part of it vaguely resembles something true, would you join that religion? Would you join if they told you about their "personal experiences" with Allah?

Of course you wouldn't. So you use different standards than those you expect people to use for your own.

Here's the problem with that 'chainsaw.'

Allah does not offer Himself to his followers. In order for your little proposition to work the deity has to be on board. As it is Allah is reserved for the 'holiest of holy' men of that religion. (less than 5/arguably since Mo-hamms)

I don't suspect you know this but that is what makes Christianity unique. It is the only Religion that places a follower directly before it's God without some intermediary to interpret.

Now having made a wild claim like that how long would an empty religion last? Or rather, if you can't seem to think past the obvious zinger, Why doesn't/Hasn't any other major religion EVER given it's followers direct access to it's God?

Yet for all that, Drich, there are many who can tell you that for all their "faith", god failed them at every turn.

Yes, I know we could get on about personal accountability, but in the end, when someone of faith is told that all they have to do is ASK, as you put it, and they do just that and still god fails them, the light bulb comes on and they realize that it was all just made up by man. We could go round and round about everything that's been discussed before but it really gets us nowhere.

At the end of the day, the reasons for why people don't personally believe are just that... their reasons. And they have a right to their non-beliefs just as much as believers have a right to their beliefs. And that's really the bottom line here. I think the point of this thread was to get people talking about what led to their mindsets as far as believing in a deity goes. It wasn't an invite for people to be preached to or for people to be challenged on why they don't believe.

I don't believe in any god or gods. I stated why pages and pages ago. That's good enough for me since god had failed time and time again to present himself in front of me. Both when I was a child and grew into an adult. If I have to conjure up some sort of image of him because he fails to "show himself", as it were, then in my opinion, he's not real. I've extended the invitation to him to join me for lunch (I'll pay) to answer some questions, time and time again. He's not ever taken me up on that offer. Therefore, the magical sky daddy is just some made up entity, created by man so that they have something to follow. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you think differently (and you do), that is entirely your right to do so. But without some sort of physical evidence, I cannot applaud your efforts to try and change any minds here.

(May 23, 2016 at 12:21 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

---

Yet for all that, Drich, there are many who can tell you that for all their "faith", god failed them at every turn.

Yes, I know we could get on about personal accountability, but in the end, when someone of faith is told that all they have to do is ASK, as you put it, and they do just that and still god fails them, the light bulb comes on and they realize that it was all just made up by man. We could go round and round about everything that's been discussed before but it really gets us nowhere.

---

At the end of the day, the reasons for why people don't personally believe are just that... their reasons. And they have a right to their non-beliefs just as much as believers have a right to their beliefs. And that's really the bottom line here. I think the point of this thread was to get people talking about what led to their mindsets as far as believing in a deity goes. It wasn't an invite for people to be preached to or for people to be challenged on why they don't believe.

---

I don't believe in any god or gods. I stated why pages and pages ago. That's good enough for me since god had failed time and time again to present himself in front of me. Both when I was a child and grew into an adult. If I have to conjure up some sort of image of him because he fails to "show himself", as it were, then in my opinion, he's not real. I've extended the invitation to him to join me for lunch (I'll pay) to answer some questions, time and time again. He's not ever taken me up on that offer. Therefore, the magical sky daddy is just some made up entity, created by man so that they have something to follow. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you think differently (and you do), that is entirely your right to do so. But without some sort of physical evidence, I cannot applaud your efforts to try and change any minds here.

---

Genius.  So well stated.  Bravo.           
--  That was ALL brilliant, Nymphadora - I just highlighted my favorite part.

(May 23, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 8:53 am)Stimbo Wrote: It's not down to any person to decide what counts as valid evidence, it's conditional and proportionate to the claim being made. Does your evidence actually evidence your claim? Would it convince you if another person offered it to you blindly, at face value? Would you require additional information to make a critical assessment? Or would you merely swallow it wholecloth?

That's the thing though.. My evidence (experiences) do indeed support what is claimed by scripture. (and then some.) Yet, it is discounted or rather most of your personally decide to discount the evidence provided. Some call me a liar, other tell me I am suffering from confirmation bias, Others say I'm crazy.

Your interpretation of Genesis 2 is enough to land you firmly in crackpot territory.

(May 23, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote: Now again, you ask would my 'experiences' act or is supposed to act as evidence for anyone else? a 1000 times no. My experiences were for me and me alone. They were only meant to for me to use to establish and maintian my system of belief. But, again here's the thing. God offers this same process to everyone who needs it.

And yet you parade your 'experiences' before us as evidence that A/S/K works. So this is a lie, you do use it as evidence. You don't know what God does or does not offer to others. You have a belief based on some passages in a book and your own experience. So don't say you don't use your experiences as evidence because you absolutely do.

(May 23, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote: I have pointed to the account of doubting Thomas many times in this thread to support the idea that God offers individual attention to those who require it if they just A/S/K for it. Thomas did not get to witness Jesus as the other 10 did, as a result he said he would not believe till he touched the wounds of Christ so He could know for Himself. So what does God do? Does He tell Thomas his faith is not strong enough? No the only thing Required of Thomas was to be in that upper room. And Jesus let Thomas experience what He needed to establish and maintain a system of belief that lead to a horrible death on His behalf, as Thomas knew Christ was really God, and all that He said was true.

You can read the mind of Jesus? It's just a story, and now we have your interpretation to add to the thousands that have come before. You don't know why Jesus offered Thomas physical proof. Maybe it didn't happen and was just a story told so that the author could put an admonishment against not having faith into Jesus' mouth. You don't know any more than I do.

(May 23, 2016 at 12:09 pm)Drich Wrote: What better 'proof' of God is there than you being placed before God?

Sure, and when the promise is shown to be empty, you'll be there to blame the disappointed. You're a true Christian.

(May 23, 2016 at 1:16 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 12:21 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

---

Yet for all that, Drich, there are many who can tell you that for all their "faith", god failed them at every turn.

Yes, I know we could get on about personal accountability, but in the end, when someone of faith is told that all they have to do is ASK, as you put it, and they do just that and still god fails them, the light bulb comes on and they realize that it was all just made up by man. We could go round and round about everything that's been discussed before but it really gets us nowhere.

---

At the end of the day, the reasons for why people don't personally believe are just that... their reasons. And they have a right to their non-beliefs just as much as believers have a right to their beliefs. And that's really the bottom line here. I think the point of this thread was to get people talking about what led to their mindsets as far as believing in a deity goes. It wasn't an invite for people to be preached to or for people to be challenged on why they don't believe.

---

I don't believe in any god or gods. I stated why pages and pages ago. That's good enough for me since god had failed time and time again to present himself in front of me. Both when I was a child and grew into an adult. If I have to conjure up some sort of image of him because he fails to "show himself", as it were, then in my opinion, he's not real. I've extended the invitation to him to join me for lunch (I'll pay) to answer some questions, time and time again. He's not ever taken me up on that offer. Therefore, the magical sky daddy is just some made up entity, created by man so that they have something to follow. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you think differently (and you do), that is entirely your right to do so. But without some sort of physical evidence, I cannot applaud your efforts to try and change any minds here.

---

Genius.  So well stated.  Bravo.           
--  That was ALL brilliant, Nymphadora - I just highlighted my favorite part.

You're gonna make me blush. Thank you for the kind words

I guess I'm just thinking all of that after reading through the tons of pages on this topic that, yes, we can go round and round with the believers but at the end of the day... our position is still going to stand and it doesn't matter what the opinions of others are. These are the things that led US to our non-belief. After what many of us have been through, thanks to god ignoring us, it's highly doubtful that anyone is going to convince us.

And like I said, it's fine if someone wants to believe in a deity. Doing so just isn't where the majority of the members here, sit. It doesn't make us wrong nor does it devalue our opinions any.

(May 23, 2016 at 3:19 pm)Nymphadora Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 1:16 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Genius.  So well stated.  Bravo.           
--  That was ALL brilliant, Nymphadora - I just highlighted my favorite part.

You're gonna make me blush. Thank you for the kind words

I guess I'm just thinking all of that after reading through the tons of pages on this topic that, yes, we can go round and round with the believers but at the end of the day... our position is still going to stand and it doesn't matter what the opinions of others are. These are the things that led US to our non-belief. After what many of us have been through, thanks to god ignoring us, it's highly doubtful that anyone is going to convince us.

And like I said, it's fine if someone wants to believe in a deity. Doing so just isn't where the majority of the members here, sit. It doesn't make us wrong nor does it devalue our opinions any.

Exactly.  If they want to believe in Thetans or Magic Underwear, that's fine.  It's only when they get in my face and try to insist that they are right and I am wrong that we have a problem.  And then there are the extreme ones - - we have a few here - - that I just have to put on ignore.  "Agree to disagree" does not seem to be in their wheelhouse.

(May 23, 2016 at 3:31 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Exactly.  If they want to believe in Thetans or Magic Underwear, that's fine.  It's only when they get in my face and try to insist that they are right and I am wrong that we have a problem.  And then there are the extreme ones - - we have a few here - - that I just have to put on ignore.  "Agree to disagree" does not seem to be in their wheelhouse.

So true... it would seem that the vast majority that come here, do so under the premise that they're going to "save" us from something.

Not something....The Horrible Thing My God Will Do To You If You Don't Listen To Me.™